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# Oversimplification maybe, and sorry it's not funny
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but I thought it needed to be said.

edit: in light of all the raging arguments and finger pointing this has
generated, I thought I would point out, the reds and greens are not
meant to be specific peoples, it could apply to this present situation, it
could apply to a historic one, it will probably apply to another one soon.
It's just pointing out that one man's terrorist is anothers freedom
fighter, and ALL wars are usually about the haves and have nots, NOT
evil and right and wrong, regardless of what we're told on TV.
(I helped save b3ta! ..wil, Thu 7 Jul 2005, 16:11, archived)
# Hooray
for graphic simplicity!
Could be used to educationalize our kids
(I helped save b3ta! The Legendary Pink Dot isn't impressed by this whole "internet" thing, Thu 7 Jul 2005, 16:14, archived)
# simple
and true
(I helped save b3ta! WOLF .™, Thu 7 Jul 2005, 16:16, archived)
# call me cynical but
Just watch that national ID card legislation sail through. Only 15% of the country supported the government after the last election, this will ensure total fealty to a smarmy Blair and whatever he wants to do. Ken Livingstone and the opposition parties will now have no grounds to reject ID card legislation, especially with the Olympics coming to London in 2012.

The police state measures they'll get out of this will be overlayed onto all forms of transport. In fact, you won't be able to travel without the ID card.


MI5 have been caught involved in IRA bomings multiple times over.

EDIT: excellent post WIl!
(Betty Bo Bibster, Thu 7 Jul 2005, 16:24, archived)
# Cynical!

*points*


(I helped save b3ta! Sir Aunty Grampa Dave the Hat - enjoying a post-meridian muncheon - Ta! Cannaoogim!?, Thu 7 Jul 2005, 16:26, archived)
# you are cynical
but i rather fear you're also correct
(I helped save b3ta! gravytrain, Thu 7 Jul 2005, 16:26, archived)
# ^this
it occurred to me too. 'Cos obviously ID cards prevented the Madrid bombs....
(I helped save b3ta! Afinkawan Yes I can hear you Clem Fandango, Thu 7 Jul 2005, 16:28, archived)
# true
and then the terrorists will have won

(I helped save b3ta! Vultan the real one I threw my little yellow shoe, Thu 7 Jul 2005, 16:28, archived)
# everyone wins - except us
the extremists need the politicos for their cause and the politicos need the extremists to justify their police state
(Betty Bo Bibster, Thu 7 Jul 2005, 16:31, archived)
# do I get cake

(I helped save b3ta! Vultan the real one I threw my little yellow shoe, Thu 7 Jul 2005, 16:32, archived)
# yep, but no cherry
if Al Qu'da didn't exitst they would need to invent it


mmm


now theres a thought
(Betty Bo Bibster, Thu 7 Jul 2005, 16:36, archived)
# Careful
There's cynicism, then there's paranoia
(I helped save b3ta! Frogoz, Thu 7 Jul 2005, 16:49, archived)
# Imaginary terrorists
do not blow up trains and kill people.
I accept the point that al-Qaeda, as a single organisation with a central command structure, does not exost. But a loose network of people calling themselves 'al-Qaeda' does exist and has been responsible fo atrocities.
You do seem a bit of a paranoid conspiracy nut, if you don't mind me saying so. And even if you do.
(I helped save b3ta! Mr. Tea dole-nonce-amuser extraordinaire, Thu 7 Jul 2005, 16:52, archived)
# what a tragic and unfortunate world
I'm glad I don't live there...
(I helped save b3ta! Mousing, Thu 7 Jul 2005, 16:15, archived)
# that looks like commie propaganda to me
you are the red menace aicmfp
(I helped save b3ta! gravytrain, Thu 7 Jul 2005, 16:15, archived)
# did
someone say red leader?


woo to the animation
(I helped save b3ta! xHellfire was here on, Thu 7 Jul 2005, 16:15, archived)
# No, not funny.
But true.
(I helped save b3ta! Afinkawan Yes I can hear you Clem Fandango, Thu 7 Jul 2005, 16:16, archived)
# You forgot...
"...but in redworld, the girls weren't allowed to go to school. The boys were, but only to learn the Holy Words. Sometimes the little girls had their clitorises cut off. When they got older, they weren't allowed to go out without a man with them, and had to cover their bodies with big black sheets. They also had to do everything their husbands told them to.
Anyone who didn't like this got whipped in public, because they didn't have elections, just men who told them what to do. And anyone who listened to music or read a book that wasn't Holy or flew a kite was also whipped. They were not very happy most of the time."

Yes, oversimplified is the word.
(I helped save b3ta! Mr. Tea dole-nonce-amuser extraordinaire, Thu 7 Jul 2005, 16:16, archived)
# *cries*
(I helped save b3ta! Mousing, Thu 7 Jul 2005, 16:19, archived)
# Oh yes...
And no religious brainwashing, slavery, murder, torture or lying ever happened in the green world? Also, the green world is currently led by a monkey from the bottom of the monkey basket.
(I helped save b3ta! Watney Heckbulb uhnnnnnnnn has a new blog: www.skepticcanary.com, Thu 7 Jul 2005, 16:20, archived)
# ^this
which end should one open an egg???
(I helped save b3ta! eat bostik, it's better than putting Carol Vorderman's head in a blender (just), Thu 7 Jul 2005, 16:21, archived)
# In the middle!
([sic] You're ad here?, Thu 7 Jul 2005, 16:22, archived)
# What are you talking about? What about the American dream?
Whereby with a little hard work any ordinary multi-millionnaire can take on his daddy's job.
(Sir Ian Blair, Thu 7 Jul 2005, 16:25, archived)
# hmm - cannot log in to edit my posts
So: Edit: (Has been said before and far more eloquently)
(Sir Ian Blair, Thu 7 Jul 2005, 16:27, archived)
# Well, a hell of a lot less happens that currently does in 'redworld'.
I was pointing out the idea that the majority of the Muslim world, particularly the Middle East, was/is a happy functional place before Big Bad America turned up and Stole All The Oil is fucking ludicrous.
People need to take their heads out of their arse and realise just how unpleasant it is to live in an Islamic theocracy. As much as I don't like America's creeping hold on the world, and wish we could all just get along and respect each other, I'd rather live in country that has a McDonald's on every corner than one in which women are considered the property of their husbands.
(I helped save b3ta! Mr. Tea dole-nonce-amuser extraordinaire, Thu 7 Jul 2005, 16:28, archived)
# So
we should bomb them, steal all their oil and then whinge when they bomb us in return?


If our foreign policy was a lot more ethical, the random nutters who do this would not have the support network that they do, they would not have the grudging acceptance that they do from others.

Islam is a peaceful religion and it's dodgy at best to say a culture you don't understand is wrong.

Do you really think that if Arabic countries were treated better by the West quite so many of the normal people living their would have tacit agreement with the terrorists?

Feel free to look at the IRA and the mixed feelings of normal Irish citizens to their actions and the difference in attitude towards them when they started punishment beatings and bombing civilians etc.
(I helped save b3ta! Afinkawan Yes I can hear you Clem Fandango, Thu 7 Jul 2005, 16:35, archived)
# Yeah...
but remember all the shit that the British put the Irish through. It took until the 70's to get one-man-one-vote in Northern Ireland, before then if you owned a house you got a vote, if you owned lots of houses you got lots of votes, and if you didn't you got no votes. This meant that the rich and powerful protestants got all the votes, and the poor catholics had hardly any!
Then there is collusion, ridiculous prejudice etc. Sure the IRA are deplorable, but don't forget the British massacared people at football matches, and Winston Churchill believed the Irish were sub human.
(I helped save b3ta! Watney Heckbulb uhnnnnnnnn has a new blog: www.skepticcanary.com, Thu 7 Jul 2005, 16:42, archived)
# True
I wasn't denying that. But do you think any of it would have happened if we hadn't treated Ireland like that?

If we'd declared actual war and bombed their cities, do you think the terrorism and the support for terrorism from the populace would have gone up or down?

The whole point of the animation at the start of this thread was that two wrongs do not make a right. Only a fucking idiot would fail to see that.
(I helped save b3ta! Afinkawan Yes I can hear you Clem Fandango, Thu 7 Jul 2005, 16:45, archived)
# "Islam is a peaceful religion..."
Christ, the number of times I've heard people say that.
By the time Mohammed died, there existed an Islamic empire that covered most of North Africa and the Middle East. This wasn't achieved by peaceful missionary activity!
I'm certainly NOT saying that ALL Muslims want to take over the world, but to merely parrot the liberal mantra "Islam is a peaceful religion" doesn't achieve anything.
I agree Western foreign policy leaves a very great deal to be desired. This doesn't mean you have to side with the terrorists - 'my enemy's enemy is my friend' is the mistake Bush (and other US leaders) have repeatedly made.
And it's presumptuous of you to say I don't 'understand' a culture. I understand it well enough to find many aspects of it repulsive.
(I helped save b3ta! Mr. Tea dole-nonce-amuser extraordinaire, Thu 7 Jul 2005, 16:45, archived)
# Liberal mantra?
Is that the best refute you can come up with?

Go on then, explain why exactly Islam is not a peaceful religion....

While you're at it, why not point out exacty which bit of my post said I was 'siding with the terrorists'.

Just because people do terrible things in the name of a religion, that does not mean the religion is evil. And saying 'well they're a bit nastier than us so there's no need for us to try to be nicer because we're still slightly better than them' is hardly the zenith of logical debate.

If the best you can manage is 'either you're with us or against us' and can't see any possible shades of grey in this big, complex world of ours then just go back to reading your Rush Limbaugh book.

(I helped save b3ta! Afinkawan Yes I can hear you Clem Fandango, Thu 7 Jul 2005, 16:54, archived)
# The 'with us or with them' attitude is exactly what I'm trying to refute.
It seems to me that a lot of Western liberals (and I consider myself a liberal in most important senses) have rushed to defend Islam in general, ignoring some of the more unsavoury points of *some* Islamic cultures, simply because they're now the sworn enemy of the American establishment. My own attitude is that no cultures a perfect, but that it's wrong to suggest that they're all 'as good as each other'.
As far as I am aware, and please correct me if I'm wrong, the Qu'ran says that every true Muslim (male) should "be able to ride a horse and fight with a bow and a sword" - something like that, anyway. I've already mentioned the early military success of the culture. Go to Afghanistan, Iraq, Yemen and much of the Arabian peninsular and all the men carry guns. I'm certainly not claiming Christianity or any other religion (OK, maybe Buddhism) is any more inherently peaceful.
(I helped save b3ta! Mr. Tea dole-nonce-amuser extraordinaire, Thu 7 Jul 2005, 17:01, archived)
# Damn right
Onward Christian soldiers.

When you are given the choice of supporting either someone with no respect for any aspect of you rculture, the lives of your family, or your way of life, or someone who's lived down the street and is prepared to blow himself up for his beliefs I imagine it's quite easy to go for the terrorist.

Whatever is said I find it hard to argue with someone who's blown himself up for his beliefs. I think if more politicians were this way inclined the world would be a better place.
(Sir Ian Blair, Thu 7 Jul 2005, 16:57, archived)
# i think
they got a burst of support within the republic after the british government gave materials and support to the loyalist bombings of dublin in the 70s, which the british government still refuses to answer any questions on, and the current irish government tries hard not to push too hard, since it's bad for trade. but the punishment beatings were there from the early days - as soon as any corrupt bastard operating outside the law gets a taste for power, you're always going to have abuses.

the biggest waning in their support has been time - at the end of the day, I'm 2 generations away from the black and tans raping women and torching my home city. My parents would have missed it, but received anger from their parents, who would have been around at the time. Consequently, our generation has been far more objective, and is even further from the original goals of the post-partition IRA. Let's face it, neither the Republic nor the UK really want a small bit of land with a higher concentration of hate, violence and racism than most anywhere else...
(I helped save b3ta! WhoElse I'm what Willis was talking about, Thu 7 Jul 2005, 16:48, archived)
# Exactly
You're removed from it, the attrocities aren't still happening, you're much less likely to condone the IRA planting a bomb in a London Underground station.

Be nice to each other, being nasty just pisses people off.
(I helped save b3ta! Afinkawan Yes I can hear you Clem Fandango, Thu 7 Jul 2005, 16:57, archived)
#
Woman were the property of their husbands in the western world about 60 years ago. Were we all evil then?
(I helped save b3ta! ..wil, Thu 7 Jul 2005, 16:35, archived)
# More so than now, yes. I'm not saying our system is perfect,
but it's a hell of a lot better than the systems in place in much of the world.
(I helped save b3ta! Mr. Tea dole-nonce-amuser extraordinaire, Thu 7 Jul 2005, 16:39, archived)
# needs to be reposted i feel
(I_am_B, Thu 7 Jul 2005, 17:52, archived)
# Don't forget
those who weren't whipped. They were whipped because of their sinful whipless lifestyle.
(I helped save b3ta! The Neville What what what, Thu 7 Jul 2005, 16:20, archived)
# and they wern't allowed to protest about these things
within 1km of the leader of green world, and green worlds leader cheated to become leader in the first place
sometimes people from green world would go to red world and declare that only a few places were like you decribed and most were very free and easy like oman but no one belived him and bomded his freinds in iran anyway
(I helped save b3ta! Vultan the real one I threw my little yellow shoe, Thu 7 Jul 2005, 16:22, archived)
# but of course
the people in the green world were about to be banned from complaining about the red people as well because that would be 'inciting religious hatred'
(I helped save b3ta! the wub - guide onion for the blind, Thu 7 Jul 2005, 16:54, archived)
# ...and
in Red world, they essentially lost because they used the capitalist structure to create a FRANCHISABLE BRAND for their little terrorist cells!! Ha ha ha, how utterly pathetic, they have such an absence of ideas that basically the best they can come up with is
MC-TERRORISM!
(I helped save b3ta! vladimir, Thu 7 Jul 2005, 16:24, archived)
# That would be only one section of redworld
not all the redpeople are into turbans and allah.
(Azzek!, Thu 7 Jul 2005, 16:29, archived)
# Many countries that are on the wrong side of the gun to the west have questionable cultural norms
...but that doesn't make it OK to exploit and/or bomb them. As has been pointed out, many western countries were until recently similar in many respects. It is generally the countries with higher average wages that have better human rights, suggesting that exploitation of the masses is in some way related to a poor populace. The west has exploited and bombed many Christian countries, and many Christian countries have abominable human rights records. I agree with you that many muslim countries have terrible human rights issues, but I don't think that was the point of Wil's post - we don't bomb or exploit them because of these facts

Most religions have a terribly bloody history. Most religions can be interpreted in many different ways.
(I helped save b3ta! tipassoi, Thu 7 Jul 2005, 17:01, archived)
# woo
this should be shown at schools.
(I helped save b3ta! eat bostik, it's better than putting Carol Vorderman's head in a blender (just), Thu 7 Jul 2005, 16:17, archived)
# scarily woo.
Remove the "shit" and "bastard" words, and this could be used as a Terrorism 101 primer for schools.

sad, really. But a fine ami-nation
(I helped save b3ta! Skotzmun Blah blah secret passage blah blah diamonds., Thu 7 Jul 2005, 16:17, archived)
# That's about the size of it.
Nice thinking. :)
(I helped save b3ta! grey kid is breakdancing to save a community centre, Thu 7 Jul 2005, 16:18, archived)
# bravo!
the title was wise enough, and the anim was superb. they should put this on the news after every 'terrorism' item. you should email it out into the world
(unlawful odour i dunno..., Thu 7 Jul 2005, 16:19, archived)
# no, don't email it out
the CIA will come round your house!
(I helped save b3ta! I could eat the scabs off a dead dog That was a brand new hat, Thu 7 Jul 2005, 16:23, archived)
# .
in light of the days events, i think simplicity is the best option. good job.
(Jeeves, Thu 7 Jul 2005, 16:34, archived)
# Excellent
gets to the crux of the biscuit directly
(I helped save b3ta! katzenfinch, Thu 7 Jul 2005, 16:45, archived)
# well said
(I helped save b3ta! Obz Click, ting, stamps, Thu 7 Jul 2005, 16:47, archived)
# good on ya
woot yar and a hoola dancer wibbling about a bit
(I_am_B, Thu 7 Jul 2005, 16:54, archived)
# good work
(I helped save b3ta! but the hedgehog can never be buggered at all foreskin of the apocalypse, Thu 7 Jul 2005, 16:55, archived)