The world has been so very close to experiencing loads more nuclear explosions.
This lot are only the American fuck-ups!
I wonder what stories the Ruskis/Frogs/Brits/Pakis/Indis/etc have got neatly hidden away.
(, Thu 17 Sep 2009, 18:49, Reply)
"pakis"?
really?
edit: and frogs. needless!
(
nivosargh tangos with the devil, Thu 17 Sep 2009, 18:54,
Reply)
I'm a pom in Oz...
And Australian's shorten everything and put 'y' or 'ie' ont he end of shortened words.
They freely call Pakistani's 'Paki's', Even the newspapers when referring to the cricket say 'Paki'. It's hard to get over that they're not being racist they're just shortening the word and making it more of a chummy nickname.
But then they do call people from the mediterranean 'Wogs' football is referred to as 'Wogball' they have 'Coon' cheese freely available in all supermarkets and a stadium called 'Nigger Brown Stadium'
(, Thu 17 Sep 2009, 21:14, Reply)
I'm also a Pom in Oz
And me and my aussie wife can't recall any instances of Australians "freely calling Pakistanis 'Pakis'..."
But my esteemed expatriate is indeed correct about the 'Coon' cheese and the Wogs (although after the 'chk chk boom' incident, 'Wog' has been underlined as a racial slur)...
(, Fri 18 Sep 2009, 8:54, Reply)
Oh Tinfoil Hat Board, I though you were above Hilarious Internet Racism.
*facepalm*
(
Amorous Badger : One of our most popular models., Wed 23 Sep 2009, 19:38,
Reply)
Good going, racist.
(
JackAction Give me all your expensive brandy and hubcaps., Thu 17 Sep 2009, 19:00,
Reply)
Maybe change the "I wonder what" bit?
it makes you look ignorant :/
(, Thu 17 Sep 2009, 19:05, Reply)
paki?
i didn't notice that. thats a bit silly isn't it? you know that's offensive eh? do you know why it's offensive?
(
tickle RIP Iain M Banks, Thu 17 Sep 2009, 19:05,
Reply)
In which case it's probably even more offensive to Pakistanis than if a caucasian person said it.
But then as an Indian, you'd know that, so you must have said it deliberately.
(
The Hedgehog From Hell MASSIVE SARCASM ALERT!, Thu 17 Sep 2009, 19:12,
Reply)
Pakistani's would only find it offensive if it came from a white boy\girl
Trufax
(, Thu 17 Sep 2009, 19:16, Reply)
Many Pakistanis I know would take it as a bigger insult coming from an Indian.
Most Pakistanis I know are Muslim, and all my Indian friends are Hindu, so perhaps that has a bearing on it.
(
The Hedgehog From Hell MASSIVE SARCASM ALERT!, Thu 17 Sep 2009, 19:19,
Reply)
i hadn't realised that pakistani's
all had the same opinion.
(
tickle RIP Iain M Banks, Thu 17 Sep 2009, 19:24,
Reply)
Depends on age and demographic
As with all arguments, the simplest of arguments never goes 100%
in answering everything - as this thread is showing.
(, Thu 17 Sep 2009, 19:31, Reply)
you racist cunt
(
DaveExclamationMark speedcoredave.co.uk | Pinkie Pie Style!, Thu 17 Sep 2009, 19:24,
Reply)
I find that you, as a white person, calling me, an Indian, a 'cunt' is highly racist.
You and your mates in the BNP make me sick.
(, Thu 17 Sep 2009, 19:28, Reply)
Attention people!
Paks would be I suppose more appropriate, but there's not really anything wrong with Paki.
Pak = pure
Stan = Land of
i = ...grammatical point.
Pakistan, land of the pure. It's like the difference between saying Slovak and Slovakian, both are perfectly appropriate - though Slovak is often for ethnicity/culture and Slovakian for citizenship.
The fact you're all crying racist about this is more a show of your ignorance, and assumption that ol' pissflaps up there means it offensively, than of his.
Pissflaps means it politically rather than ethnically, as well, as he seems to be talking about nuclear mis-haps - a politically motivated point. If he were talking about ethnicity, well, I'm sure you all know that only ~44% of Pakistan is Punjabi and the Pashtun in the NWF play a massive part in Pakistan, including the Chief Justice in the mid-90s being a Pashtun! So... who's he being racist to? The Punjabis, the Pashtun, the Sindhis, the Balochis or all the rest?
Answer on a postcard.
Or, more likely, being pissflaps he just said it to wind you all up, 'cos the point that he made the post seems to indicate that he does give a shit about the whole nuclear situation over there (also that he referenced them). It seems, pissflaps, that it's not what you say, but how you say it; after all.
(, Thu 17 Sep 2009, 19:34, Reply)
Ah right. I must've been mistaken about paki being used as an offensive term for the past few hundred years them. My bad.
(
JackAction Give me all your expensive brandy and hubcaps., Thu 17 Sep 2009, 19:39,
Reply)
Being used as an offensive term in your society
and maybe you take umbrage at it, and fair enough. But really, does it matter? He's highlighting points that may be of significance to those referenced - however so - in the future, he didn't post something saying how all those whose ethnic origins lie in the area in and around the Indus valley and other Aryan populated lands are, well, anything offensive.
He used a word you don't like in a context that's actually quite respectable; is that really so bad?
He used it, well, ironically. And because you didn't see it as such doesn't mean it's his fault. Anyway, must go and eat.
(, Thu 17 Sep 2009, 19:43, Reply)
I think you are trying a bit too hard to play devils advocate here
Rember he used in a context along with "frog", I dont think it was inteded as a term of respect.
A misguided attempt at humour maybe..
(
Jorvic Englishness means always having to say youre sorry, Thu 17 Sep 2009, 19:45,
Reply)
See post below & go & have little think.
You will get it, just try a little harder.
(, Thu 17 Sep 2009, 19:50, Reply)
Will do fella.
Though I'm strugling with your point..
I think jumping to "racist" conclusion is a bit much, yes, but I still find these words offensive. And I know plenty of none-racist people who make "ironic racist" jokes and sometimes use these words. They know not to do it around me because I find it offensive..Ive yet to persuade them not to do it even around me, presenting a PC agenda isnt exactly cool these days. if it ever was
Nothing wrong with trying to avoid these situations by not using the words in a public forum though.. also see Stewart Lee link reply below.
Enjoy your grub..
(
Jorvic Englishness means always having to say youre sorry, Thu 17 Sep 2009, 19:57,
Reply)
Ah didn't read propeprly then, thought you were Frozen_Bannana then
Yes it is quite difficult being me.
(
Jorvic Englishness means always having to say youre sorry, Thu 17 Sep 2009, 20:12,
Reply)
Can I offer you a lacy hankie to dab away your tears?
Big girls blouse.
(, Thu 17 Sep 2009, 20:15, Reply)
you really are too kind
(
Jorvic Englishness means always having to say youre sorry, Thu 17 Sep 2009, 20:18,
Reply)
The last paragraph
applies to the Frogs also.
Furthermore, the only time I've ever heard Frog used offensively was in an episode of Hornblower; I've used it, but only as a tongue in cheek term of endearment, like Rosbif (or however it's spelt).
(, Thu 17 Sep 2009, 20:03, Reply)
Etymology
Wikipedia also gives this derivation:
The name represented the "thirty million Muslims of PAKISTAN, who live in the five Northern Units of British Raj — Punjab, Afghania (also known as North-West Frontier Province), Kashmir, Sindh, and Balochistan."
Which is what I dimly remember from my fresher course on Indian politics 14 (fuck me! 14!) years ago.
(
Enzyme is powered by sunlight, Thu 17 Sep 2009, 19:39,
Reply)
Your last paragraph = Truth
Mr Pissflaps (as most in the dayshift know) can wind the odd
person up, and that is a good thing.
Good logical post btw.
(, Thu 17 Sep 2009, 19:39, Reply)
I was under the impression that the correct term is "Pakistani"
If he were to refere to ethnicity, ide gues as you say he would refere to Punjabi etc.
The P word is on a par with the N word in my opinion, its has heavy connotations, and as with the N word, I don't think it should be used by anyone (which also helpfully sorts out the idiot prats that say "well if they can say it...") out of mutual respect for everyone.
I find these words offensive, and I couldn't give a flying fuck the ethnicity of the person saying them. Like I say below, play nice people..
(
Jorvic Englishness means always having to say youre sorry, Thu 17 Sep 2009, 19:41,
Reply)
Agreed to the point that
I don't put weight on words.
If someone calls me a money-thieving yiddo bastard, well, I don't care. If someone speaks all nice and tries to rip me off on a cleaning contract I do care.
Though this is due to my social conditioning, holocaust jokes, pogrom jokes, "money-thieving" jokes; I'm so used to any sort of intolerant slur that it can be easily brushed off, though I must say, it does depend on whether they're actively promoting the racist/offensive idea or merely just off the cuff. Though I do understand others don't really feel the same way, they've just don't have the same conditioning in relation to these matters.
And now I really must eat!
(, Thu 17 Sep 2009, 19:48, Reply)
Little i
Not coming the cunt, but i wouldn't mind hearing why abbreviation is in and of itself a racist practice. I know why racism is bad, the illiberal collectivist denial of the individual as sovereign entity, I am asking why abbreviation is.
People from Finland are called Finns, a Scot comes from Scotland, Thais generally originate in Thailand. We are not worried about that, so let's proceed. (I don't think merkin is correct for United States of America, but curiously the settled will of the board appears not to seem quite so sensitive or agitated about that particular case.)
It is absolutley correct to shorten Afghanistan to Afghans and Kazakhstan to Kazakhs.
So it looks like the problem here is all over a little i. Is i racist?
The official demonym is pakistani, but it's not a huge stretch to see paki as being a reasonably legitimate-looking informal contraction of that.
The only reason you would stop short I guess is the fact we have already meekly and with extreme cowardice decided to abandon rafts of langauge for the exclusive use by racists.
And by that abandonment allowed those terms to become toxic and hold excessive power to do damage. Cut the fuckers off at the knees and take their insults off of them.
So that's the plan then, if at the conclusion of our investigations here, we can find no explicit connection between gramatical shortening and racist ideology, then i propose we reclaim and normalize the vocabulary.
Yeah, you are right, of course i am thinking about that Lenny Bruce bit as i type this last bit. So what.
(, Thu 17 Sep 2009, 20:41, Reply)
Can I just say also, that I didn't call Pissflaps racist, I just pointed out that I dont like the word.
My counter argument would be. That if people use the N word or P word they simply legitimise its use with these racist types. You may be able to distance your self from the domminent connotations they have, but many people cannot. So just to make everyone a bit happyer, why not avoid the situation completly. I know I sound like a bleeding heart lefty, but I would not be comfortable using any of these words, I my self am not comfortable hearing them, and because Ive unfortunatly met a few that do use these words and have the racist views behind their use I can imagine what their use in other contexts could be like. Ive even had the pelasure of being punched in the face for shouting back at some one who used the P word at one of my friends, which was a bit stupid late night in Boro.
Theres no word to be "claimed back" here, its racist connotations are too strong, and theres really no point, 'Pakistani' is adequate.
The distinction I make with "merkin" or even "Frog" etc. Is that there isn't the same history associated with those words.
(
Jorvic Englishness means always having to say youre sorry, Thu 17 Sep 2009, 21:13,
Reply)
Frog has been used for a lot longer than paki.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_slurs#F
Its all in the details.
(, Thu 17 Sep 2009, 21:45, Reply)
Obviously
but when I hear "frog" I dont instantly think of skinheads throwing bricks through windows etc. If you know what I mean?
(
Jorvic Englishness means always having to say youre sorry, Thu 17 Sep 2009, 21:53,
Reply)
Personally, I try to restrict myself to only saying to someone on the internet what I would say to them in real life.
I wouldn't generally call someone a Paki to their face. [As a side note, my friend Sanjeev told me the funniest Paki jokes I know.] Frog? Maybe, depending on context. I would call a French person a frog if the context was understood by everyone to be light-hearted.
The internet, though, removes context. By saying "paki" on an internet messageboard you are essentially speaking aloud in a room full of people you don't know. Like I said down there, go into the middle of Pollockshaws and start calling people Pakis, see how far it gets you.
If you're happy to say it, go right ahead, but you'd have to be both naive and stupid to expect a reaction any different from "you can't say that!!!1!" Peter G seems to think that Pakis don't have the internet, though, so you might get away with it.
(
The Hedgehog From Hell MASSIVE SARCASM ALERT!, Thu 17 Sep 2009, 22:00,
Reply)
White Man's Burden
You could try to make that distinction Jorvic, but i think you are too quick to dismiss a revealing double-standard.
I dispute that it's a careful calculation based on evaluating associated history, i get the feeling it's some sort of white liberal guilt ... Subconciously what i think it represents is that you are not worried about the americans or french because you feel they are strong enough to look out for themselves, but pakistanis or africans are not sufficiently capable and need patronising paternalistic protection. Someone to look after them.
What about the word Japs, tricky, ever so slightly, slightly darker skin, but technologically advanced industrial culture, where does the "historical association" pointer land on that one.
So fuck it, not so keen on that, I know you are a nice guy and all that i'm not trying to fuck you here, but I think you are doing those that you are trying to "protect" a disservice. I think any reinforcement of victim status is psychologically and culturally harmful.
I am also not at all that keen on the infantalisation of langauge, it's not the N-word or the P-word (or the J-word, if it was decided previously that Japs was in fact horrifically racist),
a: we are not 5 year olds, and b: it's bullshit, you had the word nigger in your head when you typed N, just as everyone else had it right after reading what you typed, it's just a disingenuous bit of language politics bullshit, so we should probably avoid it.
Linguistically, there are no inherent racist connotations in any of these words, nothing literally exists in Paki versus Pakistani that can describe or ellucidate any aspect of racist ideology.
The only reason these words are racist is becuase we allow only racists to use them. As long as that exclusion-zone exists, their ability to offend and demean exists, if you remove that exclusion-zone, then the words lose their power, and racists lose a weapon.
Those racists cunts you had to deal with would have had nothing to use.
Your refusal to disarm racist vocabulary unfortunatley only keeps victims weak and serves to give racists strength.
(, Thu 17 Sep 2009, 22:57, Reply)
So in practical terms, then
how would you realise such an apparently abstract concept as "reclaiming" a word from other people?
(
The Hedgehog From Hell MASSIVE SARCASM ALERT!, Thu 17 Sep 2009, 23:20,
Reply)
"If you see Sid, tell him"
Like decimalisation or when Sweden swapped from driving on the right to the left.
12 January 2010 is now designated P-Day, switch-over day.
Paki becomes an informal and friendly truncation of the word Pakistani.
(, Thu 17 Sep 2009, 23:31, Reply)
Excellent.
So what are you, personally, in real life, going to do about it? You have lots of grand ideas, but I don't see any specific applications being proposed here. I also cannot see how decimalisation and switching sides of the road - both utterly practical considerations which have a massive effect everyone's daily life, both taking place decades ago - can possibly be comparable to this vague concept of reclaiming a word that you're proposing.
Examples, please. Practical examples of how this is going to work. I like your idea, but at the moment it's a pipe dream. Sell it to me. Tell me how it's going to work.
(
The Hedgehog From Hell MASSIVE SARCASM ALERT!, Thu 17 Sep 2009, 23:38,
Reply)
Network effects.
That was the example, i've told you when it's happening, you tell everyone you know, and tell them to tell everyone they know.
That is how it's current ignominious definition and subsequent proscription was attained, it's driven purely by usage, nothing else, there is no Académie. If enough people choose to defuse the word and apply new meaning, then it's done. Language is fluid and changes all the time, I'm just giving it a nudge, it won't be a problem, you worry too much.
(, Fri 18 Sep 2009, 0:02, Reply)
I'm not worried in the slightest,
I'm just concerned that you seem to think you can effect change by doing nothing.
Supposing it all goes according to plan, though, how are you going to measure the outcome?
(
The Hedgehog From Hell MASSIVE SARCASM ALERT!, Fri 18 Sep 2009, 0:08,
Reply)
No
it may apear infintile, but like I say, I don't like to use the word. end of. But I take your point about it being disengenuous, in future I'll just refere to them as extreme racial slurs or not at all.
I'm not reacting to 'certain' words because I think certain groups can handle it less than others. I wouldn't be so arrogant to make those distinctions, and I can only judge my use of words from my own perspective, if I was to use a word that offends some one greatly, I would hope to be more aware. I'm offended that you asume my dislike of these words is some sort of unthinking ingrained left wing, middle class guilt type thing. I find the words offensive, and I don't like anyone using them. I don't see how having this opinion makes me a shit.
You require people to "grow up" about these words to disarm them.
I completly disagree, these words DO cause offence, and I don't think your going to get a concencus that all us normal nice respectful people should be using them so the racist can't, and it doesn't disarm them, personaly I don't take offence to being called a Sassenach or a Sais, how ever if a Welshman or Irishman were to use them with real venom that would be still hurt.. disarmed words as whole that can still be backed up with racist intent. Look at when Prince Harry used these words in relation to his friend, his friend said he didn't mind, but it caused alot of offence for others because the word isn't disarmed for others. And I'm guesing the lad would be hurt to hear the word used in a racist context dispite it being disarmed in other contexts. Basicly I dont think there is a way when this word is used in its most offensive context that it can pass in everyday conversation without anyone batting an eyelid. Of coarse there is no inherint linguistic racist connotation, but thats not the way semiotics works. There are older words which at one time were on the same level, but their passing from use has caused their venom to be lost. I prefere the term Native American to Red Indian, though the laters use these days is laughable (though if i was in the USA or Canada Ide maybe say differently)
I'm a hypocrit, show me a person that isn't, I used to say offensive things around gay friends in a similar "disarming" kind of way, but to be fair its misguided humour, I was mortified when I thought it offended one friend (though I later found out it didn't) So I decided it was best not to, same with my opinion on this kind of thing. and give me a fucking break on the Japan one your putting words and concepts into my mouth. You think I'm sat here waying up my use of words etc. on that basis? My deffinition of "historical association" would be a words used as a weapon against individuals, thats what I'm talking about not based on skin colour or the economy of a country.
I resent the implication that I am nieve, have double standards, racist (or rather racialy motivated) in my opinions on these words. They cause offence, I don't like them. Use them if you want, but don't be surprised if I say I find them offensive. Your use of them would apparently be best intentioned, but its alot to convey using the word in a sentence without giving some sort of disclaimer.
edit - " Use them if you want, but don't be surprised if I say I find them offensive" Just read that bit back, kind of buggers my argument.. Dont use them I mean ;)
For gods sake will some one post a cock or some fluff, this is getting too heavy!
(
Jorvic Englishness means always having to say youre sorry, Fri 18 Sep 2009, 0:06,
Reply)
Like i say, I'm not trying to give it to you tight, there's plenty of other cunts here that deserve a right proper fuckin roastin, but there's obviously an important difference in appreciation going on here that's probably worthwhile kicking around as long as no-one loses the heid.
I don't think it can seriously be denied that there does exist out there a particular demographic, (i'm not saying what paper they read) but a white-liberal cultural cringe. A leftist tradition going back to what, Rousseau, the myth of the noble savage, begatting the romanticist bucolic. Along with a predisposition to a generally collectivist worldview, then there's reasonable odds of diagnosing 'white guilt', and probably also a pathological, but rigiourously selective over-compensation.
Y'know what I mean, the double standard of violent, racist, sexist, homophobic hip-hop lyrics and empty anti-social conspicuous consumption, not being criticised, as they would in any other circumstance, but instead being venerated as exqusite cultural artifact, that kinda vibe.
What, am i gonna say you aren't really offended, no, but you do know a lot of people that are professionally offended, offended on behalf of their terribly oppressed charges. Lookin to make right.
Genuine offense is something quite different to manufactured, triangulated offense. I think real offense is visceral, much of the offense i witness rings hollow, and seems trite and self-serving in comparison.
Either way, offensiveness is probably not quite enough to justify a NewSpeak distortion, constriction and restiction of language, especially if it turns out after all that, I was right all along, and all it actually does is continue to marginalize the victim, reinforce the notion of otherness, and to perversely empower the thugs.
Queer is pretty much defused, that was a conscious effort to say fuck you to all concerned, I think we need a bit more of that robust kinda attitude.
(, Fri 18 Sep 2009, 1:04, Reply)
Interesting reply.
10/10 for getting the political point being made in that you dress it up to look like something when it actually means something else, politics at its very apogee.
The reaction to this point is rather amusing, but also adds to the irony regarding the severe threat to the world by nuclear accidents being over shadowed by the name-calling - something which, over decades, contributed to the arms race.
In pretending to be of Indian ethnicity was just chucked in there to challenge the conscience & confuse those who want to play the racism card. Oh, & also for a laugh.
PF
(, Thu 17 Sep 2009, 19:44, Reply)
Hahaha, you're a slightly dim person pretending to be intelligent.
It's very amusing, do carry on.
(
The Hedgehog From Hell MASSIVE SARCASM ALERT!, Thu 17 Sep 2009, 20:04,
Reply)
*Does not like racist terms being used by anyone* Play nice people...
(
Jorvic Englishness means always having to say youre sorry, Thu 17 Sep 2009, 19:35,
Reply)
Oh ffs
Anyone over the age of ten should be able to deal with offensive words
Edit: And if someone uses those words that you find to be racist or otherwise it doesn't mean they're are BNP/Nazi.
(, Thu 17 Sep 2009, 19:43, Reply)
Time to bring out the Stewart Lee is it?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IYx4Bc6_eE
(
Jorvic Englishness means always having to say youre sorry, Thu 17 Sep 2009, 19:47,
Reply)
Honestly, I don't know what's come over /links as of late. Many of these newer members are far
more sensitive about this tripe than others.
It's not racist and most B3tans don't give a shit.
(
Digeridude Lord Wellington's Beef Trapeze, Thu 17 Sep 2009, 20:11,
Reply)
Yeah, its really weird how the new 'uns can be very sensitive & start crying all the time.
I don't remember b3ta being as gay as it is now.
(, Thu 17 Sep 2009, 20:20, Reply)
I've been here longer than you, and I'm calling you a massive racist prat, right here.
(
Amorous Badger : One of our most popular models., Wed 23 Sep 2009, 19:42,
Reply)
Go into deepest Pollockshaws and start calling the locals Pakis.
They're all over 10, they should be fine with it.
(
The Hedgehog From Hell MASSIVE SARCASM ALERT!, Thu 17 Sep 2009, 20:21,
Reply)
Don't tell anyone, but apparently they're allowed on the internet these days.
Political correctness, and all that.
(
The Hedgehog From Hell MASSIVE SARCASM ALERT!, Thu 17 Sep 2009, 20:38,
Reply)
Oh fuck off.
At no point did I used the phrase "political correctness" or any other phrases like that.
(, Thu 17 Sep 2009, 20:43, Reply)
60% of Internet bandwidth in UK is consumed by BBC iPlayer users
Now I know what happened to the remaining 40%. Must dash, got a plane to catch.
(, Thu 17 Sep 2009, 21:23, Reply)
I fucking love it here
Thanks all for a thoroughly entertaining discussion. Interesting, too. B3ta - Its not just about cocks.
(
kfk I get all my everything right here, Fri 18 Sep 2009, 0:16,
Reply)
Consider yourself ignored, you racist cunt!!!
(
@RBFesquire Come back from the retardis, Fri 18 Sep 2009, 1:45,
Reply)
That'll show him.
(
Amorous Badger : One of our most popular models., Wed 23 Sep 2009, 19:44,
Reply)
Whenever I need to be reminded of the spastication of the internet
I need look no further than this thread.
(, Wed 23 Sep 2009, 22:11, Reply)