b3ta.com links
You are not logged in. Login or Signup
Home » links » Link 625877 | Random (Thread)

This is a normal post Well I prefer this thread as I can see my house from up here : D
Don't see this story as a bad thing.
If an armed police officer is firing at you he is shooting to kill every time. There is no "Shoot to wound"
There are "non" leather devices like tasers for that but even those carry a risk.

What this does do though is protect bystanders as you're less likely to get a "through and through".
 (I helped save b3ta! Cerebus Sticky! Sticky! Stick! Stick!, Thu 12 May 2011, 8:14, , Reply)
This is a normal post
Tazers have a limited range. Hollow points, you wont be walking away from that one, I dont see the need as things haven't escalated to the point where firearms officers are in short supply. They can still shoot to wound ,carry automatics, heavily armoured.

I just cant see why?
 (Spin Its a thing., Thu 12 May 2011, 8:22, , Reply)
This is a normal post Not sure if I get you.. It's not about upping the ante because there's a shortage of armed officers
It's about changing the ammunition that they carry from something that can pass through the target into a bystander to something that will certainly do more damage but wont be as much of a risk to others.

Armed air marshals I believe carry hollow points for the same reason.

Shooting to wounds is just not possible.
If an officer is in a situation where they get away with just wounding the suspect then they shouldn't have taken the shot in the first place.
 (I helped save b3ta! Cerebus Sticky! Sticky! Stick! Stick!, Thu 12 May 2011, 8:31, , Reply)
This is a normal post Shooting to wound is a phrase used by people who have watched too many movies
In the movie, the hero gets tagged in the arm or leg and carries on fighting.

In real life anywhere you get hit you are in serious danger of bleeding to death fast. People don't survive gunshots because of being shot somewhere less serious, they survive based on the quality and speed with which medical care gets to them.
 (Stonkwood Pipes made me do it, Thu 12 May 2011, 8:49, , Reply)
This is a normal post Indeed
you can get shot in the stomach and survive, but you can get shot in the leg an bleed out in seconds. There is no safe place to shoot someone.

Good life lesson is if someones pointing a weapon and you and telling you to stop whatever you're doing.

Stop whatever you're doing.
 (I helped save b3ta! Cerebus Sticky! Sticky! Stick! Stick!, Thu 12 May 2011, 8:56, , Reply)
This is a normal post No safe place to shoot someone?
The hair.

AICMFP
 (I helped save b3ta! mr.dogshit The world's premier anthropomorphic canine faeces, Thu 12 May 2011, 9:16, , Reply)
This is a normal post I meant its not really the USA
A couple of nutters with guns have appeared in the news but seems like overkill to me.
Shooting to wound will be vaunted by the police as fiction, especially in the case of a suspect they've turned into a colander. The police are set up in measured controlled procedure in the case of a shooting, primarily for their own safety. This doesn't make for a 'I had to kill because it was him or me ' situation. Im not really anti-police, Im just very wary with new powers as I tend to ask the question ' in that situation, if it was a mistake, would I be able to walk away' see Jean Charles de Menezes
(yes I know they didn't use hollow points, but it was a mistake all the same)
 (Spin Its a thing., Thu 12 May 2011, 9:32, , Reply)
This is a normal post Well Jean Charles de Menezes was killed by MI5 not the met but anyway
It's not turning the UK in the USA with armed police as standard.
They're talking about changing the ammunition that the police marksman already have.

Shoot to wound is fiction, you cannot safely shoot someone.
This is why there is so much research into "less than lethal" options.
 (I helped save b3ta! Cerebus Sticky! Sticky! Stick! Stick!, Thu 12 May 2011, 9:41, , Reply)
This is a normal post
No the UK isnt the USA (yet) we have had armed police for many years now.
How is hollow point 'less than lethal'?
Shoot to wound would be nice, but then why have tazers? Just bin them and go for the glory shot
 (Spin Its a thing., Thu 12 May 2011, 10:34, , Reply)
This is a normal post Er......
I wasn't saying hollow points weren't lethal.

I was saying that because you cannot shoot to wound forces around the world have been experimenting with what they term "less than lethal" responses.

We're talking about projectiles (bags, batons, rubber balls etc), gases, quick set foam (AKA Riot Foam from 2000ad) and various ways of pumping high voltage into the human body.
 (I helped save b3ta! Cerebus Sticky! Sticky! Stick! Stick!, Thu 12 May 2011, 11:34, , Reply)
This is a normal post
So along with high staffing numbers, "beanbag" rounds, batons, tasers,'choke and suppression' techniques, body armour, national CCTV system, automatic weaponry,foam, tear gas, pepper spray, plastic bullets, air support (I'd better put as in 'surveillance', as you'll probably think I mean Hellfire missile support)
You still think Hollow point is required? Oh, lets do grenades next, or maybe tactical low radius atomic weaponry?
 (Spin Its a thing., Thu 12 May 2011, 12:15, , Reply)
This is a normal post exaggerate much?

(I helped save b3ta! Cerebus Sticky! Sticky! Stick! Stick!, Thu 12 May 2011, 12:41, , Reply)
This is a normal post As opposed to all their other leather devices

(I helped save b3ta! flatfrog Staring vacantly into space, Thu 12 May 2011, 8:59, , Reply)
This is a normal post Haven't had coffee yet....

(I helped save b3ta! Cerebus Sticky! Sticky! Stick! Stick!, Thu 12 May 2011, 9:12, , Reply)
This is a normal post Been thinking about this.
I can see the logic behind the decision - increased stopping power against threats, less likelyhood of a round fragmenting or going straight through the target and harming bystanders etc. It still feels excessive to me though. Surely a highly trained firearms officer should only need one shot with a regular round to take someone down. Also, what if the officer misses, or the Police have the wrong target?
The way I see it, JHPs are going to amplify the results, good *and* bad. Bit of a double-edged sword.
 (I helped save b3ta! Kerrisis There's someone in my head, but it's not me., Thu 12 May 2011, 10:46, , Reply)
This is a normal post It's to make it less likely they'll be able to make that last big effort to reach the detonator button after being shot
www.b3ta.com/links/625923
 (I helped save b3ta! Lord Keeps meaning to procrastinate., Thu 12 May 2011, 10:58, , Reply)
This is a normal post ...yeah.
Not sure your exit wound logic works. JHPs don't always stop inside a target. If they don't, the exit wound they leave is massively larger than a standard round.

As I said, I can see the logic in the Police issuing them from an anti-terror perspective. I find myself wondering how many suicide vest-equipped terrorists the Met have had to shoot in the past decade, and how many of those were able to trigger their bomb due to not being dead after the first bullet. Is that *really* a justification?
I'm a little wary of people in power making these changes under the excuse of "the terrorist threat" which, to be honest, we've seen pretty much cock-all of in this country; MI5 and "Counter Terrorism Command" (ie Special Branch) seem more than adept enough at intercepting terrorists before they strike. Are JHPs *really* necessary for standard firearms coppers, who traditionally deal with idiots waving guns about rather than loony suicide bombers?
 (I helped save b3ta! Kerrisis There's someone in my head, but it's not me., Thu 12 May 2011, 11:51, , Reply)
This is a normal post "Don't see this story as a bad thing."
really?

They kettle and beat protestors, and push people to the ground with enough force to kill them, and you are happy these thugs have guns?
 (I helped save b3ta! Avast is still alive!!!!, Thu 12 May 2011, 11:03, , Reply)
This is a normal post What? We're not talking about street police being armed here.
We're talking about already armed police marksmen.

As for complaining about kettling FFS. Ask you parents about the poll tax riots.
That was proper police brutality. Gettin run down and trampled by horses, having your clavicle broken with a baton as a standard method of bringing someone down.
Thats police brutality. Check out choke holding. Check out beatings with rubber hoses.

Not saying it's perfect but the police force these days is nowhere near as brutal is it was 20 years ago.
Having to stand around and really needed a piss is not the worse crime the force has commited.

That officer who pushed that bloke is going to get hammered and the first coroner who produced the initial report is getting hammered too.

[edit]

Whilst we're on the subject of kettling....
It's been a standard form of crowed control at football matches for decades.
It only seems to have become a problem when it started being applied to the middle classes.
 (I helped save b3ta! Cerebus Sticky! Sticky! Stick! Stick!, Thu 12 May 2011, 11:42, , Reply)
This is a normal post As someone who was at the Poll tax riots.
I wholeheartedly agree. I spent a large propertion of my youth as an angry lefty, a bit of kettling would have been a picnic in the park compared to full-on cavalry charges, followed up by vans at 30+mph and *then* several hundred coppers in riot gear doing a baton charge.
 (dieselmonkey, Thu 12 May 2011, 20:32, , Reply)