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This is a normal post Good
About time

And before people go round putting the Tory label on anyone who doesn't want to be in a more federal Europe.

Loads of Tories have a hard on for Europe including Ken Clark who also goes round flogging ciggies to the third world.
 (I helped save b3ta! Cerebus Sticky! Sticky! Stick! Stick!, Wed 23 Jan 2013, 8:52, , Reply)
This is a normal post I must admit
Im always suspicious of the "if u don't Want to be in a boat with cunts" u must be nasty Tory argument
 (DefyingDarwin Old, untalented and white,, Wed 23 Jan 2013, 9:12, , Reply)
This is a normal post I get it a lot on here so I created this handy infographic

(I helped save b3ta! Cerebus Sticky! Sticky! Stick! Stick!, Wed 23 Jan 2013, 9:24, , Reply)
This is a normal post Not really.
That's a false dichotomy that the bog-eyes in UKIP and the Tory right have set up: that you're either pro-federalism, or pro-exit. Cameron is playing to exactly that gallery: those who yearn for a vision of sovereignty that never, ever was, and never could have been, and would be stupefying were it ever to come about.

Clarke's nasty little cigarette habit has nothing to do with this, either.
 (I helped save b3ta! Enzyme is powered by sunlight, Wed 23 Jan 2013, 9:54, , Reply)
This is a normal post So you're after a two speed Europe then?
Or shall we hold back all the others that are moving towards federalism?
And Clarks "nasty little habbit" is that he's in the pocket of Cig manufacturers.
 (I helped save b3ta! Cerebus Sticky! Sticky! Stick! Stick!, Wed 23 Jan 2013, 10:20, , Reply)
This is a normal post I reject the terms of the choice.
But for what it's worth, I incline more towards the federalist. The age of the nation-state is over; if it ever happened, it was an historical aberration. It's certainly not as straightforward as it's presented by the tweed-clad boggle-eyed xenophobes of UKIP, who seem to have formed their idea of foreign policy from a battered copy of The Riddle of the Sands.

Again with the chaff about Clarke. It's not relevant to this debate.
 (I helped save b3ta! Enzyme is powered by sunlight, Wed 23 Jan 2013, 10:30, , Reply)
This is a normal post Benedict Anderson's Imagined Communities is my current reading for a project I'm developing
Worth a read, Nation-State, national identity etc are really just concepts co-opted and promoted by the establishment and Monarchies of Europe as their divine right to rule of disparate peoples came under scrutiny. Austria-Hungry is a good example, very complicated construct. Going back further people only cared about their villages, as Knights raped and plundered their way through Europe, who the King was or even the local Lord wasn't really the top of peoples concerns... Fast forward to Global Corporations doing much the same (nasty business in the developing world) The need for oversight by (at least partially) democratic organisations on a large scale is vital.
 (I helped save b3ta! Jorvic, Wed 23 Jan 2013, 10:42, , Reply)
This is a normal post "formed their idea of foreign policy from a battered copy of The Riddle of the Sands" made me lol out loud

(I helped save b3ta! daveyclayton Gosh, is it really, Wed 23 Jan 2013, 11:26, , Reply)