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This is a link post David Cameron being a fucking twat (again).
He's only going to go ahead & promise an In/Out referendum (if he's reelected). Assuming they get in next time, the mass of retard voters will do what Murdoch tells them to & 30 + years of progress in big areas of UK life can be rolled back by our pals in the Tory party :-(
Oh, and it will be the first step leading to an eventual vote which may be defeated afterwards, so people vote in the Tories and they still may not get the final Out decision you want.
Politicians being politicians.

Still, the X Factor will still be on telly.
 (pissflaps. FSPW, Wed 23 Jan 2013, 6:20, , Reply)
This is a normal post Straight from that policy genius Osbourne.
The same genius, who when presented with an open goal at the last general election managed to hit the fucking bar. I just hope that in an era where more people read twitter and facebook than the Murdoch press that that is carried through to an election.

This promise is simply the Tories trying to win back the real nutters in the party from UKIP as the last thing they need is their vote being split at the next General Election, particularly when the traditional splitting of the Labour vote to the Lib Dems is likely to have less of an impact.

Rant over... oh Torys, what a bunch of cunts.
 (I helped save b3ta! slartifartfast When all around are losing their heads, duck., Wed 23 Jan 2013, 7:45, , Reply)
This is a normal post Winning back the frayed fringe...
...and also deflecting attention from a perennially stalling economy for which they have no solution. Blaming problems of ones own making on outsiders is the textbook jingoist propaganda model.
 (I helped save b3ta! daveyclayton Gosh, is it really, Wed 23 Jan 2013, 8:20, , Reply)
This is a normal post I thought this was a global economic crisis?
Everybody's fucked except the Chinese.
 (I helped save b3ta! Cerebus Sticky! Sticky! Stick! Stick!, Wed 23 Jan 2013, 9:44, , Reply)
This is a normal post Yes, but....
www.newstatesman.com/blogs/the-staggers/2010/04/spending-cuts-tories-recovery

and...

www.newstatesman.com/blogs/the-staggers/2012/02/youth-unemployment-minimum

There was another article I used to link to but I can't find it..
 (I helped save b3ta! Jorvic, Wed 23 Jan 2013, 9:55, , Reply)
This is a normal post Can't we just have a conversation rather than pamphlet slinging?

(I helped save b3ta! Cerebus Sticky! Sticky! Stick! Stick!, Wed 23 Jan 2013, 10:18, , Reply)
This is a normal post Sorry
But yeah, the global crash happened, what counts is how you deal with it. Everything the Tories have done and the results there of were predicted. The VAT hike for instance was one of the stupidest things possible they could have done, the NI increase would have been a fairer and less damaging approach. Whilst Labour would have, and were borrowing more on the short term, gradually bringing down that borrowing whilst maintaining jobs (through investment such as the Future Jobs fund, and through Public Sector workers which keeps money physically in the economy) and the favorable interest rates we have (and had at the time of the election) we could have maintained the growth we had, and started to deal with the deficit. As it is the borrowing needed to support those the Tories and Lib Dems have thrown on the doll far excedes the borrowing that Labour proposed for its stimulus. Friedenomics got us in to this, the idea that flogging your house off brick by brick, roof tile by roof tile is the best way to deal with negative equity on your mortgage, will get us out of it is bat shit insane in my opinion...
 (I helped save b3ta! Jorvic, Wed 23 Jan 2013, 10:28, , Reply)
This is a normal post I concur

(Spin Its a thing., Wed 23 Jan 2013, 12:57, , Reply)
This is a normal post It will never happen
it's a desperate attempt to get re-elected, and if they do (perish the thought) they'll come up with some bollocks reason not to do it.
Cameron wants to stay in EU. he's never going to allow a referendum that he would lose.
That's why he's not doing it now: he's keeping it as an election promise
 (I helped save b3ta! Joe Scaramanga with a G-double-O-D vibration, Wed 23 Jan 2013, 8:50, , Reply)
This is a normal post Was just about to post sometihng similar.
A Clegg-esque attempt at an election u-turn.
Desperate UKIP vote snatch.
 (Spin Its a thing., Wed 23 Jan 2013, 13:03, , Reply)
This is a normal post Good
About time

And before people go round putting the Tory label on anyone who doesn't want to be in a more federal Europe.

Loads of Tories have a hard on for Europe including Ken Clark who also goes round flogging ciggies to the third world.
 (I helped save b3ta! Cerebus Sticky! Sticky! Stick! Stick!, Wed 23 Jan 2013, 8:52, , Reply)
This is a normal post I must admit
Im always suspicious of the "if u don't Want to be in a boat with cunts" u must be nasty Tory argument
 (DefyingDarwin Old, untalented and white,, Wed 23 Jan 2013, 9:12, , Reply)
This is a normal post I get it a lot on here so I created this handy infographic

(I helped save b3ta! Cerebus Sticky! Sticky! Stick! Stick!, Wed 23 Jan 2013, 9:24, , Reply)
This is a normal post Not really.
That's a false dichotomy that the bog-eyes in UKIP and the Tory right have set up: that you're either pro-federalism, or pro-exit. Cameron is playing to exactly that gallery: those who yearn for a vision of sovereignty that never, ever was, and never could have been, and would be stupefying were it ever to come about.

Clarke's nasty little cigarette habit has nothing to do with this, either.
 (I helped save b3ta! Enzyme is powered by sunlight, Wed 23 Jan 2013, 9:54, , Reply)
This is a normal post So you're after a two speed Europe then?
Or shall we hold back all the others that are moving towards federalism?
And Clarks "nasty little habbit" is that he's in the pocket of Cig manufacturers.
 (I helped save b3ta! Cerebus Sticky! Sticky! Stick! Stick!, Wed 23 Jan 2013, 10:20, , Reply)
This is a normal post I reject the terms of the choice.
But for what it's worth, I incline more towards the federalist. The age of the nation-state is over; if it ever happened, it was an historical aberration. It's certainly not as straightforward as it's presented by the tweed-clad boggle-eyed xenophobes of UKIP, who seem to have formed their idea of foreign policy from a battered copy of The Riddle of the Sands.

Again with the chaff about Clarke. It's not relevant to this debate.
 (I helped save b3ta! Enzyme is powered by sunlight, Wed 23 Jan 2013, 10:30, , Reply)
This is a normal post Benedict Anderson's Imagined Communities is my current reading for a project I'm developing
Worth a read, Nation-State, national identity etc are really just concepts co-opted and promoted by the establishment and Monarchies of Europe as their divine right to rule of disparate peoples came under scrutiny. Austria-Hungry is a good example, very complicated construct. Going back further people only cared about their villages, as Knights raped and plundered their way through Europe, who the King was or even the local Lord wasn't really the top of peoples concerns... Fast forward to Global Corporations doing much the same (nasty business in the developing world) The need for oversight by (at least partially) democratic organisations on a large scale is vital.
 (I helped save b3ta! Jorvic, Wed 23 Jan 2013, 10:42, , Reply)
This is a normal post "formed their idea of foreign policy from a battered copy of The Riddle of the Sands" made me lol out loud

(I helped save b3ta! daveyclayton Gosh, is it really, Wed 23 Jan 2013, 11:26, , Reply)
This is a normal post Getting desperate then?

(I helped save b3ta! Fadgebadger (1 like), Wed 23 Jan 2013, 8:56, , Reply)
This is a normal post I suppose so.
Was thinking about this short-term political fix whereby Cameron needs to get some votes back and the long-term consequences of being out of the EU just because a few hundred eurosceptics and four newspaper owners want to relive a 'British Empire' experience.
 (pissflaps. FSPW, Wed 23 Jan 2013, 9:02, , Reply)
This is a normal post Yep
The Daily Mail are lapping it up.

I have to say, in fairness to him, having head part of the speech on Radio 4 this morning he did raise some legitimate points about the EU - i.e. that a 'one-size fits all' approach hasn't worked and everyone accepts it won't work in the future. I still think that ultimately, though, it's a desperate ploy to try and save his chances at the next election.
 (SnowyTheWereRabbit the Leporid from Hell, Wed 23 Jan 2013, 9:45, , Reply)
This is a normal post I don't understand why people don't seem to get incredibly angry when they talk about getting rid of the working time directive
Since the unions have been defanged we kind of rely on the EU for shit like that...
 (I helped save b3ta! Jorvic, Wed 23 Jan 2013, 9:49, , Reply)
This is a normal post Well, as long as Bill Cash and that odious Farange buffoon are influential at the heart of central government then UK workers are surely in safe hands.

(pissflaps. FSPW, Wed 23 Jan 2013, 9:53, , Reply)
This is a normal post We need a new Socialist International thats what I say ;)

(I helped save b3ta! Jorvic, Wed 23 Jan 2013, 9:57, , Reply)
This is a normal post I'm thinking that we just need a government that helps it's friends in Europe, even when they don't like us so much because of some silly-billy's saying stupid things.

(pissflaps. FSPW, Wed 23 Jan 2013, 10:09, , Reply)
This is a normal post Did you hear the opening bit?
fields in Europe
Waterloo
Darkest hour

It was pure, unadulterated, flag waving toss without actually commiting to anything.

He is just trying to head off a leadership challenge and the threat from UKIP.

Wanker
 (LetsGetDownToIt, Wed 23 Jan 2013, 9:52, , Reply)
This is a normal post ^This^
It was utterly nauseating.
 (I helped save b3ta! Enzyme is powered by sunlight, Wed 23 Jan 2013, 9:55, , Reply)
This is a normal post I do know how to spell 'hear'
But can't edit the title.

Sorry
 (LetsGetDownToIt, Wed 23 Jan 2013, 9:57, , Reply)
This is a normal post a mysterious mod has fixed this
dunno who
 (I helped save b3ta! rob, Wed 23 Jan 2013, 10:01, , Reply)
This is a normal post Ta

(LetsGetDownToIt, Wed 23 Jan 2013, 10:11, , Reply)
This is a normal post I assume they won't do it
as if they really wanted out of Europe they'd just do it. It's not like the public were asked for our opinion on flogging the NHS.

Stalling tactic. But a nasty one that'll mean loads of toxic headlines to pump up the public into hating Europe more. Poles coming over here taking our jobs. Fuck off Frogs etc.
 (I helped save b3ta! rob, Wed 23 Jan 2013, 9:58, , Reply)
This is a normal post Perhaps I'm showing a little ignorance here
but aren't referendums a good thing? If they just went ahead and pulled out (or indeed, stayed in) the EU regardless of the public opinion, wouldn't that cause massive uproar?

I hate Cameron, and I'm definitely not a Tory, but I can't quite grasp why asking the public what they want in this matter is a bad thing.
 (I helped save b3ta! Fork Has lost his bash virginity!, Wed 23 Jan 2013, 10:11, , Reply)
This is a normal post Because democracy is only wanted when people vote the right way.
And can't be trusted with the important matters.
 (I helped save b3ta! Cerebus Sticky! Sticky! Stick! Stick!, Wed 23 Jan 2013, 10:23, , Reply)
This is a normal post ^ Exactly this
The biggest issue with democracy is that there are far more idiots in the world than geniuses.

Genghis Khan had the right idea.
 (I helped save b3ta! Draconacticus Reject shampoo. Demand real poo!, Wed 23 Jan 2013, 10:46, , Reply)
This is a normal post No, for a couple of reasons.
First, they're unnecessary: the constitution of the UK has it that it's the job of Parliament to represent the people. A referendum undermines that. (As several people on Twitter have said, it's odd that the very people who bang on about the EU's threat to Parliamentary sovereignty are those who're proposing a referendum that amounts to the same.)

Second, how often should there be a referendum, if you think that one is a good idea? If it's a good idea today, then why not next week as well? Every day, maybe, because people's minds may have changed.

Third - and similarly - why not on every subject? If it's a good idea in relation to x, why not y?

Fourth - and this relates back to the first - is it really certain that an appeal to the bare majority of the electorate is the best way to decide things? It's not at all a given that most people have the expertese to make a wise decision - something like an EU treaty is enormously complicated, and is well beyond just about everyone as an individual, so it's not clear that we'd get a particularly good result. Again, that's why there're armies of civil servants paid to write treaties and implement them, and to inform policy. It's massively complicated.

Oh, one last thing: pulling out of the EU would make things more difficult for UK businesses, simply because they'd still be bound by EU law if they wanted to sell in the Union - it's just that they'd not get a seat at the table.
 (I helped save b3ta! Enzyme is powered by sunlight, Wed 23 Jan 2013, 10:26, , Reply)
This is a normal post We would have to renegotiate a shit load of trade agreements too, which will cost money
And thats going to be some interesting negotiations. It would be like some one unilaterally pulling their investment out of a business, butting it at risk, then expecting to still be able to use the office space and the company perks...
 (I helped save b3ta! Jorvic, Wed 23 Jan 2013, 10:33, , Reply)
This is a normal post Nicely put!

(I helped save b3ta! Enzyme is powered by sunlight, Wed 23 Jan 2013, 11:48, , Reply)
This is a normal post And here I was expected a "wanker" or "prick" response.
That was well written and clearly explained what I didn't understand about it.

Thanks for that.


Can we be friends?
 (I helped save b3ta! Fork Has lost his bash virginity!, Wed 23 Jan 2013, 10:40, , Reply)
This is a normal post Wanker.
I'd hate to leave your expectations in tatters.
:)
 (I helped save b3ta! Enzyme is powered by sunlight, Wed 23 Jan 2013, 11:54, , Reply)
This is a normal post Completely logical and pragmatic points made there.
This referendum issue is so complicated and as are the implications of an 'out' vote that I'm not confident that all of us who haven't read and understood all of these EU treaties, and those of us who are not knowledgeable in economics, should really vote in matters of such far reaching importance.

I just don't trust the sweet words of Bill Cash or or the simplistic answers that Nigel Farange offers.
 (pissflaps. FSPW, Wed 23 Jan 2013, 10:43, , Reply)
This is a normal post So what rights should a citizen have towards self determination?

(I helped save b3ta! Cerebus Sticky! Sticky! Stick! Stick!, Wed 23 Jan 2013, 10:55, , Reply)
This is a normal post The rights we have at the moment seem to have worked well for a long time.

(pissflaps. FSPW, Wed 23 Jan 2013, 11:15, , Reply)
This is a normal post I read most of the Lisbon Treaty
I'm guessing they left the interesting, controversial stuff to the end. I couldn't see anything in it that fundamentally changed our Sovereignty... You'll be happy to hear I've got a bit of a life since then.. ;)
 (I helped save b3ta! Jorvic, Wed 23 Jan 2013, 10:57, , Reply)
This is a normal post And the biggest risk being that if people aren't 100% happy with the status quo
they will assume the grass is greener on the other side

(although have you seen French grass? It's well shit)
 (I helped save b3ta! A Rory Borealis here under duress, Wed 23 Jan 2013, 13:05, , Reply)
This is a normal post Fuck that
I barely trust the general public to vote for an MP let alone something that is actually important. Too many idiots that wouldn't understand in/out let alone the reasons for asking.
 (I helped save b3ta! slartifartfast When all around are losing their heads, duck., Wed 23 Jan 2013, 17:52, , Reply)
This is a normal post I'll vote for chaos everytime

(I helped save b3ta! Rebel biscuit stercore sumus et nos esse novimus, Wed 23 Jan 2013, 11:54, , Reply)