Ok here goes nothing - Coca Cola and Cocaine.
Up until 1903, Coca Cola actually contained a small amount of cocaine. Now of course it doesn't, but they still use the Coca leaf in their recipe, albeit with all the cocaine processed out of it, despite the only other use of this leaf being cocaine, and despite the fact that it is illegal to cultivate and process in most countries.

In the United States, the Stepan Company is the only manufacturing plant authorized by the Federal Government to import and process the coca plant, which it obtains mainly from Peru and, to a lesser extent, Bolivia. Besides producing the coca flavoring agent for Coca-Cola, the Stepan Company extracts cocaine from the coca leaves, which it sells to Mallinckrodt, a St. Louis, Missouri pharmaceutical manufacturer that is the only company in the United States licensed to purify cocaine for medicinal use.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coca-Cola

Now what is odd here? Well for one thing, cocaine only has very limited applications in medicine, as a component in some local anaesthetics, and these are gradually being replaced by cheaper, safer, synthetic alternatives. So given that the market for medical cocaine is small and dwindling, where as the worldwide demand for Coca Cola is huge, and growing...

...where is all the cocaine going?
( Moon Girl Technologies horrendous beanbag, Mon 5 Dec 2011, 16:04, 59 replies)

Advertising executives
And twats that work 'in media'

*edit* although probably just poured down the sink or incinerated I guess.
(robneymcplum spiced up his life on, Mon 5 Dec 2011, 16:09, closed)

yeah, right,
that's what you'd do with something that was worth billions of dollars a year.
( Moon Girl Technologies horrendous beanbag, Mon 5 Dec 2011, 16:12, closed)

Yes
It is. It would be the easiest thing in the world to spectroscopically analyse coca cola and find out if it contained cocaine. If you could prove that it frequently did - even a single part in a billion - the backlash would destroy the entire company overnight. Which do you think they would rather - risk the destruction of a vast, trillion dollar worldwide brand (as well as finding some way of keeping the thousands of people who would have to know about the presence of the cocaine silent for ever), or throw away a few hundred million a year?

Edit: Anyway, I would be surprised if the processes for the extraction of the flavouring and the cocaine weren't completely different, in the same way that you can't throw some chemicals into a flask full of air and have it instantly separate into all its components. You just wouldn't bother to extract most of the cocaine.
( MatJ LOOK, Mon 5 Dec 2011, 16:55, closed)

I think you must have read something I didn't write, there.
I didn't say the cocaine was going into the coca cola. But it must be going somewhere, and I can't believe it's going in the bin.
( Moon Girl Technologies horrendous beanbag, Mon 5 Dec 2011, 17:00, closed)

I think what he's saying is
It probably is going in the bin; they make enough money from selling the fizzy drink to not need to bother risking selling drugs too
(TheManWithThePlan cussed your mum on, Mon 5 Dec 2011, 17:04, closed)

So they get exempted from the laws prohibiting the importation and processing of cocaine just for that?
Is this what you are suggesting here, that amidst all of the hysteria over the war on drugs, that the United States government actually lets them bring this stuff into the country from Peru and Bolivia, and process the cocaine out of it just to throw it in the bin so they can use the leaves? And all of this while at the same time, the same government is trying to eradicate cocaine from the whole of South America. Does this really not seem in any way fishy to you?

It is one of the most illegal substances in the world, but here we have a soft drinks company that is somehow above the law with regards to it.
( Moon Girl Technologies horrendous beanbag, Mon 5 Dec 2011, 17:13, closed)

Not really
Cocoa leaves do not equal cocaine, as I said above. Extracting flavourings from them will be a different process to extracting cocaine. What demand there is for medical cocaine could be easily supplied by further processing a small percentage of the processed leaves to create it.
( MatJ LOOK, Mon 5 Dec 2011, 17:17, closed)

In the same way the opium poppies I have growing in my garden (true)
Can be made I guess into opium and then heroin, I'm not breaking the law.
(robneymcplum spiced up his life on, Mon 5 Dec 2011, 17:20, closed)

yes but if you culcitated coca leaves you would be breaking the law,
because cultivating coca leaves IS illegal. How many times do I have to repeat this.

Growing coca leaves is illegal almost everywhere, including in the United States. Importing coca leaves is illegal almost everywhere, including in the United States. Processing coca leaves is illegal almost everywhere, including in the United States.
( Moon Girl Technologies horrendous beanbag, Mon 5 Dec 2011, 17:24, closed)

Dependent on the processing method, cannabis can be processed for weed (bad)
Or you can get hemp (good) or extract medicinal THC (good) etc...
(robneymcplum spiced up his life on, Mon 5 Dec 2011, 17:26, closed)

We're not talking about cannabis here,
we're talking about coca. Which is illegal.
( Moon Girl Technologies horrendous beanbag, Mon 5 Dec 2011, 17:27, closed)

Are you living somewhere where Cannabis is legal?
The same logic applies.
( MatJ LOOK, Mon 5 Dec 2011, 17:29, closed)

no it doesn't.
the laws aren't the same for these different things. In this country, cannabis is a class B drug for instance, whereas cocaine is class A. I don't know what the exact legal situation is here regarding cannabis, but I'm sure it's irrelevant when talking about the laws about cocaine in the United States.

I've stated them fairly explicitly and clearly. It's illegal to grow, to import, and to process, except for those specific companies that have been granted an exception.
( Moon Girl Technologies horrendous beanbag, Mon 5 Dec 2011, 17:35, closed)

ahem
the cannibis plant grown for hemp etc has a very very very low thc content and is practically useless for trying to get high on. You could roll a spliff about 3ft long and see if you get a hit but you would probably die from smoke inhalation. Plus you need a licence to grow the low thc content (in the uk at least)
(little lord muthafuckin fauntleroy, Mon 5 Dec 2011, 20:39, closed)

I really don't know what this has got to do with anything.

( Moon Girl Technologies horrendous beanbag, Mon 5 Dec 2011, 21:47, closed)

Coca isnt illegal
Its 'doing' things to it that is.
(robneymcplum spiced up his life on, Mon 5 Dec 2011, 17:32, closed)

growing it and importing it are illegal,
I presume possession is as well.
( Moon Girl Technologies horrendous beanbag, Mon 5 Dec 2011, 17:36, closed)

yeah it's illegal
Outside of this South American context, the laws of most countries do not make any distinction between the coca leaf and any other substance containing cocaine, so the possession of coca leaf (except for decocainized leaf) is de-facto prohibited. Coca leaves are specifically mentioned.

The prohibition of the use of the coca leaf and derived products (except for medical or scientific purposes) was established by the Schedule I listing of coca, coca leaves and the actual coca plant, in the 1961 List of Controlled Substances which was annexed to the U.N. Single Convention. Coca leaves are in the same listing category as heroin and cocaine.
www.drugs-forum.com/forum/showwiki.php?title=Legal_status_and_politics_of_coca

There's an odd twist now though, because this implies that anything derived from a coca leaf is illegal even if it's not got cocaine in it.

edit: Although then:
f. " Coca leaf ' means the leaf of the coca bush except a leaf from which all ecgonine, cocaine and any other ecgonine alkaloids have been removed
( Moon Girl Technologies horrendous beanbag, Mon 5 Dec 2011, 17:42, closed)

So....
to answer you question a bit, you CAN have coca leaf if it has no cocaine in? Like the sort coca cola would use? Meaning they are doing nothing illegal? Therefore voiding the whole scenario? I assume maybe coca cola pays some columbian ex cocaine makers to process the leaves before import maybe? Seems perfectly possible.
(robneymcplum spiced up his life on, Mon 5 Dec 2011, 19:06, closed)

no,
Stepan Company processes the leaves. They have a special exemption to do so.

My point is that the amount of leaves imported by Stepan is well in excess of the medical need, and that said exemption is entirely down to the Coca Cola's political clout. The only reason, it seems, that decocanised leaves are allowed is because of pressure from Coca Cola.

I'm not accusing Coca Cola of doing anything illegal. They're far too big and clever for that. They made it legal. But only for them and their suppliers.

As for the claimed discrepancy between legitimate need and actual amount imported, I'm still trying to get some definite figures on that.
( Moon Girl Technologies horrendous beanbag, Mon 5 Dec 2011, 19:14, closed)

Regardless of whether or not coca leaves are the same as cocaine,
they are ILLEGAL. Illegal to import, and illegal to process, except for Coca Cola's supply chain. They are exempt from the law.

The official line is that the cocaine is for medical use. The official line is not that it is thrown away. That would be crazy, no way could they justify legal exemptions of a banned substance just for flavourings for pop.
( Moon Girl Technologies horrendous beanbag, Mon 5 Dec 2011, 17:23, closed)

I still don't really see how this is a problem
US government: "We need someone to make limited supplies of medical cocaine. We will use company x".

Company x: "OK. As we're importing the leaves anyway, can we import a few more in order to create some flavourings, and make the cocaine* from the processed leaves?"

US government: "We don't see why not, but expect regular inspections to check that's all you're doing".


I'm not saying this is how it started out, but I imagine it's pretty close to the reasoning nowadays.



Edit: *Limited amounts of
( MatJ LOOK, Mon 5 Dec 2011, 17:27, closed)

"a few more" is a bit of an understatement.
They import up to 500 metric tons or more in a year, enough to make about 1.7 tons of cocaine. Coca cola is almost certainly their biggest customer, by a long way, in terms of volume.

And why do coca cola go to the trouble? Couldn't they use something else instead?
( Moon Girl Technologies horrendous beanbag, Mon 5 Dec 2011, 17:32, closed)

like Heroin?

(robneymcplum spiced up his life on, Mon 5 Dec 2011, 17:34, closed)

Maybe they could
But presumably they would lose the characteristic flavour. You said yourself that only they can use the coca leaves - and there's no reason to believe that all the leaves are turned into cocaine after the flavourings have been extracted. Most will probably be thrown away or destroyed rather than go to the extra effort of extracting the cocaine.
( MatJ LOOK, Mon 5 Dec 2011, 17:35, closed)

And I would assume
The process of removing the flavourings, I dont know how but assume its the same as how you get essential oile etc for perfumes and fragrances, would destroy traces of cocaine or make the leaves unusable.
(robneymcplum spiced up his life on, Mon 5 Dec 2011, 17:37, closed)

no official source is saying that any of it is destroyed.
they are saying it is for medicinal use.
( Moon Girl Technologies horrendous beanbag, Mon 5 Dec 2011, 17:37, closed)

For the fourth time
I'm not saying any cocaine is destroyed. I'm saying that it is never refined in the first place, because the leaves it would have been refined from are destroyed.

Cocaine and coca leaves are not the same thing.

Edit: You seem to be assuming that they extract all the cocaine that it's possible to extract, and I'm saying that they almost certainly don't, especially as they have absolutely no need to.
( MatJ LOOK, Mon 5 Dec 2011, 17:57, closed)

Coca leaves are just as illegal as cocaine.
Coca leaves are illegal to cultivate, to import and to process. They're apparently not illegal after they've been decocanised, so the Coca Cola company at least keeps its hands clean, but how they justify producing the decocanised leaves other than as a byproduct of medical cocaine production, I still can't yet quite fathom. The pharmaceutical company Stepan has an exemption from the DEA (the only company that has such an exemption) for the production of medical cocaine.

I know why it is that way though, the Coca Cola company has the US Government by the throat, that's what worries me. Decocanised coca leaves are not used as a flavouring for anything else at all outside of South America.
( Moon Girl Technologies horrendous beanbag, Mon 5 Dec 2011, 18:06, closed)

I'm trying to understand where you're coming from.
Correct me if I'm wrong. What I think you're suggesting happens are these steps, in this order:

1. Import coca leaves
2. Process all coca leaves to produce medical cocaine
3. Use decocanised leaves to produce flavourings
4. As the demand for flavourings is far higher than the demand for medical cocaine, where does the rest of the cocaine go?

If that's what you're thinking then yes, I can see the problem. However, if the steps are:

1. Import leaves
2. Process all leaves to create flavourings
3. Re-process some (say 20%) of the leaves to create medicinal cocaine in amounts appropriate to world demand
4. Destroy all unnecessary leaves

Then I don't see the problem. The US government gets its medical cocaine (but no more than it needs) and coca cola get their flavourings. Both processes end up with the leaves either destroyed or in a legal form, but to me the second makes far more sense than the first.

Edit: Especially as an operation of this sort would be subject to massive public and federal scrutiny, I think that you would have to implicate large sections of the government in any plausible smuggling link. I just can't see that the benefits would outweigh the risks.
( MatJ LOOK, Mon 5 Dec 2011, 18:15, closed)

My problem is that I dont see why any company would get an exemption
for the import or use of a plant that the US Government is quite keen to entirely eradicate just so that one particular manufacturer can make soft drinks out of it.

And I don't think big business in America is particularly scrutinised at all.
( Moon Girl Technologies horrendous beanbag, Mon 5 Dec 2011, 18:22, closed)

re your edit:
I'm suggesting that if they didn't need that much coca for their medical product needs, then there is no justification for them to import that much coca. I'm suggesting that the medical market is the only legitimate use of the stuff, but that rather than running the business for the medicine and selling flavourings as a sideline, the opposite seems to be the case, and that the only reason they can get away with it is because of the influence that big businesses such as the Coca Cola company have other the legal system.
( Moon Girl Technologies horrendous beanbag, Mon 5 Dec 2011, 18:19, closed)

I actually agree with this
I never said I thought it was a good situation - what I said was that there is no good reason to posit a cocaine selling/smuggling operation from the known facts. It will be interesting to see what will happen when the medicinal cocaine market dwindles to an insignificant amount.
( MatJ LOOK, Mon 5 Dec 2011, 18:30, closed)

OK, I shouldn't claim you suggested that, because you didn't.
I should have said that there is no reason to assume an oversupply of cocaine.
( MatJ LOOK, Mon 5 Dec 2011, 18:34, closed)

well perhaps,
although I suspect it's not called the Whitehouse for no reason...
( Moon Girl Technologies horrendous beanbag, Mon 5 Dec 2011, 18:49, closed)

Indeed
Bill Clinton was terrible for not cleaning up after himself.
( MatJ LOOK, Mon 5 Dec 2011, 18:56, closed)

"And why do coca cola go to the trouble? Couldn't they use something else instead?"
Is this why Rolla Cola and Panda Pop taste crap?
(xaer0mancer, Mon 5 Dec 2011, 21:11, closed)

personally I think Coca Cola tastes crap,
but there you go.

M&S do the best cola if you ask me.
( Moon Girl Technologies horrendous beanbag, Mon 5 Dec 2011, 21:47, closed)

up my nose

(TheManWithThePlan cussed your mum on, Mon 5 Dec 2011, 16:16, closed)

Good answer!

(AndyC4m Eject Eject [><], Wed 7 Dec 2011, 9:17, closed)

I've visited two offices in London that have doors that open into tube stations
1. Houses of Parliament
2. Coca Cola

True fact.
( rob, Mon 5 Dec 2011, 16:26, closed)

Doesn't, or didn't, the BBC also?

(Me, I'm not... in any way intoxicated, Mon 5 Dec 2011, 16:55, closed)

maybe - I don't know
I'm just talking about stuff I've seen myself and thought "gosh - that's power"
( rob, Mon 5 Dec 2011, 18:10, closed)

I was thinking it could be a way to get cocaine to the media types.

(Me, I'm not... in any way intoxicated, Mon 5 Dec 2011, 18:25, closed)

The US exports it to the Columbians,
who get it back in via Mexico?

Have they never heard of vertical integration?
( monster munch person, man, woman... camera... TV?, Mon 5 Dec 2011, 16:35, closed)

Sounds like carousel fraud to me.
Wouldn't be allowed in the EU!
(Me, I'm not... in any way intoxicated, Mon 5 Dec 2011, 16:56, closed)

Harlem

( Maffers I flow kinda strange like Spina Bifida footprints, Mon 5 Dec 2011, 16:43, closed)

Stepan's one of our chemical suppliers.
I'll ask them next time they visit.
( The Mock TurtIe ™ --- Thinks you are a cunt, on, Mon 5 Dec 2011, 17:18, closed)

It's in the Sigma catalogue
Which always amused me. "Yeah, I need 5kg of Ammonium suphate, some PBS tablets, oh and 10g of your finest Sigma-branded nosebag, my good rep"
( the mighty badger Aphrodite, on a bar stool, by your side, Mon 5 Dec 2011, 18:09, closed)

I love the Sigma catalogue
Do they still do the free deodorant (for your colleagues)?

(they used to sell "corpse-scent" as well, but I never fancied that).
( Ghoti Fingers, Mon 5 Dec 2011, 21:27, closed)

We all hoover it up like troopers in research labs.


disclaimer - pharma grade coke is actually more than 5 times as expensive as the purest street stuff and it's on of the most controlled things I've come across. Sadly.
( the mighty badger Aphrodite, on a bar stool, by your side, Mon 5 Dec 2011, 18:08, closed)

If you were really paranoid...
You could argue that its used to fund wars in the Third World.

When you look at the American involvement in the various proxy wars during the Dirty Tricks-Era, it would be easy to imagine them using the surplus drugs to destabilise a region.

But the fact is, there is more of a demand and more of a profit to be made selling cola than coke. And they wouldn't want to risk the money maker for a few hundred million under the table.
(xaer0mancer, Mon 5 Dec 2011, 21:27, closed)

I just reckon they use it to bribe politicians.

( Moon Girl Technologies horrendous beanbag, Mon 5 Dec 2011, 21:48, closed)

I recreated the original recipe once
On a trip to Potosí in Bolivia I saw coca leaves legally on sale in the Market. When chewed they are a mild, dry-tasting stimulant that is no more 'refreshing' than a nice cup of tea. I tried buying a handful, but the smallest Bolivian note I had, only worth a few US cents, got me a binbag full of the darned things. That evening me and some other travellers got talking about the original recipe for coca-cola, so we decided to recreate it. I bought 2litres of the stuff, tipped some away, stuffed leaves in until the bottle was full of fizzy mushy mess, and left it to steep for an hour or two. When drunk, it actually tasted rather good, and we all had a great evening giggling about 'the real thing' in various bars until very late at night a bar owner said he did not like our Mexican friend for 'talking too much' and refused to serve us any more
Interesting place Potosí. As a consequence of the nearby mines, you can walk into a shop and buy a stick of dynamite. But that is another story...
(lazyman, Tue 6 Dec 2011, 0:52, closed)

I used to know a guy who was , and probably still is, a coca cola marketeer.
Strange guy, actually believed that coca cola was the meaning of life in a cup, and once got physically rumbustious with me and a mate for singing "It's a drink, it's a drink, it's a fizzy fizzy drink" over one of their silly adverts on the TV. For him it seemed to be more like a cult than a company.
( Ring Of Fire A petty, drooling belming butthurt retard., Tue 6 Dec 2011, 6:30, closed)

so...
just for clarifcation, is it legal to grow and process coca leaves?
(NoNoNoNoNoNoNoNoNo, Tue 6 Dec 2011, 10:53, closed)

Call me cynical
Wouldn't it be cheaper for them to synthesize the taste?
(Misery McUglywife an attention seeking sociopathic fuckstain., Tue 6 Dec 2011, 10:54, closed)

Apparently ...
... there's a coca plant tucked away in a corner of the Royal Botanical Gardens at Kew, unmarked.
( Wet-chinned bag shanker Cannot parse Wogan, Tue 6 Dec 2011, 11:34, closed)

I don't know about the stuff directly from Coca Cola
But if you're interested, I know a guy....
( the pink chicken sniffer sniffs pink chickens., Tue 6 Dec 2011, 13:19, closed)