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This is a link post Gun control and freedom: live free or die.
Sometimes I watch Penn Jillette's videos... I remember this one from a few years ago. It pretty much sums up the bat-shit insane libertarian 'freedom' argument. His line at the end is absolutely mental. I wonder how it would go down in Connecticut now...
(BarryFromTheShitFarm Oh, Tue 18 Dec 2012, 18:22, , Reply)
This is a normal post I have always disliked that bloke, albeit an irrational dislike based upon his stage act.
But now I can really hate him for a reason - thanks!
 (pissflaps. FSPW, Tue 18 Dec 2012, 18:26, , Reply)
This is a normal post It's arrogance that's putting you off

(I helped save b3ta! rjmrjm, Tue 18 Dec 2012, 18:28, , Reply)
This is a normal post Proud to be of service
To be honest... I like his stance on a many things, but I think what this video shows so perfectly is how America's cult of 'freedom' and the individual is, paradoxically, completely ruthless and self harming to peace. In the face of young children being shot to shit by somebody who had easy access to a gun, they would still choose not to violate those freedoms for fear of government tyranny.

An utterly fascinating and dangerous mindset. Makes me so proud to be boring, cynical, state-dependant and British.
 (BarryFromTheShitFarm Oh, Tue 18 Dec 2012, 18:40, , Reply)
This is a normal post Christ.
That's twice in as many days that I've agreed with you about something.
 (I helped save b3ta! Enzyme is powered by sunlight, Tue 18 Dec 2012, 19:20, , Reply)
This is a normal post /links' first civil partnership!
*crosses fingers*
 (I helped save b3ta! Tab Hunter Make this useless process end and so, begin again, Tue 18 Dec 2012, 19:56, , Reply)
This is a normal post *Buys cutlery set*

(I helped save b3ta! Fadgebadger (1 like), Tue 18 Dec 2012, 20:49, , Reply)
This is a normal post * buys place mats*

(Spin Its a thing., Tue 18 Dec 2012, 21:29, , Reply)
This is a normal post Is that one of the "Hobbit" dwarves?
We could put a spell on him.
 (CloneRanger is horribly overpriced on, Tue 18 Dec 2012, 18:36, , Reply)
This is a normal post If only i had a gun...

(I helped save b3ta! Dawn Of The Bread $$$$ E-THUG 4 LIFE - THAT'S HOW I SCROLL $$$$, Tue 18 Dec 2012, 18:38, , Reply)
This is a normal post Here's my Glock

(I helped save b3ta! The Scrunt Wants a Dozen Pints, Tue 18 Dec 2012, 20:18, , Reply)
This is a normal post
Gl C
 (I helped save b3ta! TownsendsPublisher is all gravy baby, Tue 18 Dec 2012, 21:05, , Reply)
This is a normal post Bready is a top

(I helped save b3ta! The Scrunt Wants a Dozen Pints, Tue 18 Dec 2012, 21:07, , Reply)
This is a normal post At least he seems to believe in the full package.
Most mentals calling themselves "libertarian" just mean that they don't want to pay any taxes.
 (I helped save b3ta! monkeon schmonkeon, Tue 18 Dec 2012, 18:50, , Reply)
This is a normal post So...
it's better to be free that... er... alive?

I'm going to have to sit down for a while to work this out.
 (I helped save b3ta! Enzyme is powered by sunlight, Tue 18 Dec 2012, 19:21, , Reply)
This is a normal post Freedom is worth having as long as it's the other guy getting killed.

(I helped save b3ta! maiden is filmed before a live studio audience, Tue 18 Dec 2012, 19:45, , Reply)
This is a normal post I'm not surprised
just a bit disappointed.
 (I helped save b3ta! evil_andy Stick stick stick stick sticky sticky stick stick, Tue 18 Dec 2012, 19:46, , Reply)
This is a normal post Me too I thought he had more sense than this
this is just plain stupid, selfish and he sounds like he really doesn't give a toss, but that's because it's not directly effecting him, if it was I'm sure he wouldn't have this opinion.
 (I helped save b3ta! maiden is filmed before a live studio audience, Tue 18 Dec 2012, 19:48, , Reply)
This is a normal post Nope.
Libertarians rarely have more sense than this. That's how they stay libertarian.

As I've said elsewhere (and in a wholly different context): you can tell a libertarian by the noise they make - it's the faint rattle of a tiny intellect untethered in an otherwise empty mind.
 (I helped save b3ta! Enzyme is powered by sunlight, Tue 18 Dec 2012, 19:55, , Reply)
This is a normal post I'm not quite sure what a libertarian literally is
sounds a bit like a middle-class anarchist who doesn't want to lose his/her privileges in society.

But he certainly sounds like a dick on this issue.
 (I helped save b3ta! maiden is filmed before a live studio audience, Tue 18 Dec 2012, 20:06, , Reply)
This is a normal post ^this
The more I think about it, the more it sounds like a wannabe anarchist, who hasn't actually thought through the consequences.
 (I helped save b3ta! evil_andy Stick stick stick stick sticky sticky stick stick, Tue 18 Dec 2012, 20:07, , Reply)
This is a normal post Most anarchists I have encountered have suffered from lack of understanding of the consequences of anarchism.
For example anarchist communes - sounds idyllic growing your own food and swopping items based on different skill-sets and everybody having a say in how the community is run. In reality community politics will be based upon who has the loudest voice and can bend the will of others to their vision. (sounding more like a dictatorship already). Trading of good will be dependant on some kind of scale of worth i.e. A New Age Dream Catcher isn't going to be worth the same as a sack of potatoes that took months of growing and tending to so therefore a hierarchy will soon be established where farmers are more valuable members of the community than crafters. Also how do you stop pillaging from rival communities or roaming gangs of anarchists who don't wish to work hard growing food and would rather steal it? Smash the State, smash the System fair enough but it's everyone for themselves in your brave new world.
 (I helped save b3ta! maiden is filmed before a live studio audience, Tue 18 Dec 2012, 20:19, , Reply)
This is a normal post *Steals cabbages*

(I helped save b3ta! Fadgebadger (1 like), Tue 18 Dec 2012, 22:22, , Reply)
This is a normal post It's champagne-anarchist basically.
Or 'anarcho-capitalist' as they sometimes call themselves.

Using outdated historical values to reinforce their hatred and disgust of giving poor people money.

To be fair to Penn Jillette, he's a bit more well-read than your average Glenn Beck on the issue (who ISN'T a libertarian, just a tax disagreer). However, he's something of a fantasist when it comes to pragmatism. It's a lovely idea that we'd all pay for ourselves, be happy, free and not kill each-other, but the reality is nothing more than middle class utopia.
 (BarryFromTheShitFarm Oh, Tue 18 Dec 2012, 20:25, , Reply)
This is a normal post Sounds like they want the Old West back where they run the town and government has little to no authority over their lives
stupid concept really.
 (I helped save b3ta! maiden is filmed before a live studio audience, Tue 18 Dec 2012, 20:30, , Reply)
This is a normal post Basically
They would argue that's essentially how the Founding Fathers envisioned America - just to the right of anarchy... but anyone who's been there knows how ridiculous and fanciful that idea of freedom is. I just wish they'd finally admit it to themselves.
 (BarryFromTheShitFarm Oh, Tue 18 Dec 2012, 20:34, , Reply)
This is a normal post Wow, that's blasted my opinion of the bloke out of the window
what a fucking muppet
 (I helped save b3ta! Jahled Three shades of black, Tue 18 Dec 2012, 20:48, , Reply)
This is a normal post It's consistent with the laws as they are though.
In the US, most of these school killings were by mentally disturbed/crazy people. The school killings in Europe are majority some type of political statement. I don't like either, but using kids as fodder for your personal brand of politics is scary. As is the people who ignore the hundreds of dark skinned kids in Chicago every year and freak out and have 24 hour media coverage when white, middle class kids get killed.

It is sickening.
 (I helped save b3ta! BrokenCoccyx doesn't mind if you grope on, Tue 18 Dec 2012, 20:51, , Reply)
This is a normal post Do you not find the simple statistic of eight gun deaths in the UK last year
and over ten thousand in the US slightly obvious?
 (I helped save b3ta! Jahled Three shades of black, Tue 18 Dec 2012, 21:19, , Reply)
This is a normal post Looking on Wikipedia,
rates of gun deaths don't seem to match up to firearm ownership.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country

Which isn't to say that gun ownership is a good thing, just that I'm sure things like poverty, drugs and bad mental health care are the bigger problem.
 (I helped save b3ta! monkeon schmonkeon, Tue 18 Dec 2012, 21:47, , Reply)
This is a normal post 8 to 10,000 renders even clicking on either of those links meaningless to be honest mate

(I helped save b3ta! Jahled Three shades of black, Tue 18 Dec 2012, 22:09, , Reply)
This is a normal post The 8 to 10,000 is just comparing two countries, though.
Why is comparing more countries than two meaningless?

If gun ownership was the primary cause then more data would prove that correlation.

However, is it not interesting that a country such as El Salvador can have less guns than us but the highest level of gun crime?

As with most things, there are going to be many causes. Some more than others. The whole "it is entirely about gun ownership" seems overly basic*.

I suspect that America's homicide rate not including guns would also be higher than ours.

* Though I do think it is a cause, just not the only or main one
 (I helped save b3ta! monkeon schmonkeon, Tue 18 Dec 2012, 22:17, , Reply)
This is a normal post The majority of US gun deaths are suicides.
And maybe there are less in the UK because it is a smaller population; maybe it is something cultural. Brazil has tighter gun laws, but higher gun-related deaths.
 (I helped save b3ta! BrokenCoccyx doesn't mind if you grope on, Tue 18 Dec 2012, 22:20, , Reply)
This is a normal post I can only agree with with you in that if someone wants to top themselves seriously fucking me off by jumping in front of the underground might just do it
But I am grateful to live in a society where people don't have hand guns in their top draw by their bed, or an AK-47 locked in a cabinet, mental issues or not. Best i've got is a baseball behind my bed, and a very sharp Katana I would love never to use because actually killing another person tends to have repercussions your brain might not handle in the long term, and stuff like regretting the deed for the rest of your life.
 (I helped save b3ta! Jahled Three shades of black, Tue 18 Dec 2012, 22:43, , Reply)
This is a normal post Do you not think we should
ban Katana ownership?

Our homicide rates are very stab-happy:
www.unodc.org/documents/data-and-analysis/statistics/Homicide/Globa_study_on_homicide_2011_web.pdf
 (I helped save b3ta! monkeon schmonkeon, Tue 18 Dec 2012, 22:49, , Reply)
This is a normal post I believe technically mine is illegal
Given I am not an obvious collector, or a dojo person
 (I helped save b3ta! Jahled Three shades of black, Tue 18 Dec 2012, 23:02, , Reply)
This is a normal post Celebrity Expresses Opinion Shocker.
God Bless America.
 (PhosphorBurnedEyes Swastika Shop opening here soon, Tue 18 Dec 2012, 22:10, , Reply)