Why John Sweeney lost it
Do have a look at the Scientology documentary by clicking on WATCH NOW.
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bachgammon has an unshakable alibi for, Tue 15 May 2007, 10:06,
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I watched this, I really hate scientology.
I wish there was an easy way to combat them.
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Fishcat www.crabhat.net, Tue 15 May 2007, 10:26,
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I watched this too
I fully understand why John Sweeney lost it, although you have to ask yourself - apart from timeframes, is Scientology really that different from other organised religions? They're all based on implausibilities, with histories of persecution of nay-sayers.
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Rincewind, Tue 15 May 2007, 10:29,
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True
But the point is that if those other religions started today using those tactics they wouldn't be acceptable either.
We don't hate the Germans now because of their Nazi past, but we do hate the BNP or neo-nazis...
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Fishcat www.crabhat.net, Tue 15 May 2007, 10:34,
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Very well put
I've just been reading about Dr Tobias Funke on Wikipedia. Very funny.
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bachgammon has an unshakable alibi for, Tue 15 May 2007, 10:43,
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Also means they can copyright their symbols and teachings
and quietly sue critics, which can be more powerful than just calling them sinful.
(, Tue 15 May 2007, 12:00, Reply)
It's not what they believe that is controversial...
it is the simple face that they DEMAND MONEY to impart their central belief.
Also, they intimidate people and use underhand tactics. Have you not seen the unusual behaviour they often use when picketing people's houses? It's like they WANT you to think they are creepy, so you are intimidated.
(, Tue 15 May 2007, 10:43, Reply)
true
I worked for them during my summers at college (after being intersted in the books first), and even though the books are impressive (it shares alot of themes with Aleister Crowley's Book of the Law - who Hubbard was a follower of along with Nasa scientist Jack Parsons) the organisation and members don't live up to the claims. I was auditing people to clear and the 'wins' people claim are no more than any basic therapy could achieve from listening to people unload memories of past trauma (whether or not hooked up to an e-meter).
when I was there, Dianetic Auditing cost a punter £10 per hour and Scientology Auditing cost £100 per hour!(bear in mind that a case can go anywhere up to a few hundred hours. All decided by the auditor in the session)
to convince members to leave never argue the 'tech' (as they call it) Simply and calmly tell them of the members in the higher OT levels who have left the organisation (and the fact Hubbards son commited suicide). And the core group that help Hubbard start Dianetics in the 50's who all left at the later stages after becoming disillusioned to the supposed claims.
it works as a type of auto hypnosis, and i knew alot of intelligent articulate people in there. But to advance you need to be convinced by a degree of stages. very subtle and dangerous way of getting more dependant on it (by design). So even when you reach the higher OT levels you are convinced that objective phenomena are actually subjective. I suspect this is why it works so well on celebrities like Tom Cruise etc as they live in this unreality subjective bubble most of the time anyway.
that is why the only thing that works in deprogramming people out of it is to confront them with hard facts like names and dates of OT7's who have left the organisation.
If ever i'm in Manchester near Deansgate I often pop in for a polite argument in the hope I can convince some of them to research the organisation at the higher levels. Operation Clambake is a great website to point them towards
(, Tue 15 May 2007, 11:35, Reply)
If scientology called themselves a club rather than a religion it would be awesome.
Pay a portion of your wage and they'll make you the best person that you can be, and increase your earning potential.
As it stands, they brainwash people into believing that following them is their only way to happiness, and that their friends and family are holding them back.
I lost one of my best friends to scientology about 8 years ago. Ghastly shit.
Religion and money should not mix.
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gronkpan 2 Legit 2 Twit, Tue 15 May 2007, 11:42,
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getting people out is not as hard as you think
and religion and money have always mixed
(, Tue 15 May 2007, 11:53, Reply)
We have to find him first.
His family have a two-paragraph note they got shortly after he joined. That's it.
The thing that really gets to me is that I went in there with him and a few mates for a 'free personality test' for a laugh at six in the morning after an all-night bender.
That was the last we saw of him. We should have just kept walking.
edit: I said "should not", not "do not".
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gronkpan 2 Legit 2 Twit, Tue 15 May 2007, 11:57,
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when was this?
anyone that approaches him is classed as an SP (Supressive Personality) now. And every time he gets approached he's obliged to go to the 'Ethics Officer' to report it (or when ever he has doubts about it). It's a very good way to keep him in the tech.
you should try to set up some informal way to contact him
some say the longer you're in it the harder it is to get out, as it consumes every aspect of their lives . but I've seen people at the highest levels leave
(, Tue 15 May 2007, 12:02, Reply)
1999.
As far as I can tell, he must have changed his identity. His family have hired private detectives, tried to get the law involved but to no avail.
One thing I have learned is that if someone doesn't want to be found, they won't be.
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gronkpan 2 Legit 2 Twit, Tue 15 May 2007, 12:10,
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sounds serious
If you really want to get him out, sign up youself and become a member say he convinced you and get to him this way - sounds very radical but it's dooable( I managed to convince them I was into it enough for them to allow me to audit people, I even peeked at a few of the other case notes during break time)
the best part was when they used 2 drop dead gorgeous members from Saint Hill to try and convince me to sign the 2 billion year contract (numerous lifetime commitement!) to join the Sea Org. (if you're a girl they'll use 2 hunks to try to persuade you)
(, Tue 15 May 2007, 12:27, Reply)
I gave up years ago. If he decides to leave, I'll be there for him. I don't even know where he is.
Until then, the most I can do is hope that wherever he is, he's happy.
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gronkpan 2 Legit 2 Twit, Tue 15 May 2007, 12:31,
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not this religion
but my mother had joined a cult, just after i was born, and would prey for 30mins every hour, even if i was crying next to her, my dad had enough and had a go at her, she left, and went to live with other cult memebers. my dad, in a last attempt at getting her back, actually wen to the place she was staying and kidnapped her, and told her some hard facts, ie, your family or religion. she chose the 2nd option. she was easy prey, her mother had just died, her father was drinking alot, and she didnt want to be a parent yet. thank fuck shes better know, she has her own family andi still see her, but she still hasnt learned her lesson, and still gets sucked into ideas and practices at church. Religion runied my life, i hope, with all of my soul, that you get your friend back.
sorry for mini, essay but i feel very passionate about this subject. again, thanks for posting this :)
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Captain Pilchard yay its easter!, Tue 15 May 2007, 12:45,
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religion is the greatest form of mind control there is
just ask any members at the very top of any religious organisation
like Pope Leo X. He revealed to the world papal knowledge of the Vatican's false presentation of Jesus Christ( actual prophet called Jmmanuel) and unashamedly exposed the puerile nature of the Christian religion
At a lavish Good Friday banquet in the Vatican in 1514, Pope Leo is recorded as saying:
"How well we know what a profitable superstition this fable of Christ has been for us and our predecessors."
the current head of Scientogy, David Miscavige,
, was actually Hubbards ex Camera operator who won the struggle to head the organisation from Hubbard's wife after he died in 86
(, Tue 15 May 2007, 13:01, Reply)
I'm a quaker, but not in the christian sense.
I'm not anti-religion, I'm anti-people using religion to take advantage of weaker people.
I've been told that quakerism is a cult before, but never by anyone that has done any real research on the subject. They're generally getting quakers confused with Amish anyway. At least quakers make their beliefs known and don't charge any money for them.
There aren't any members at the top of the organisation. Or we all are, depends on which way you look at it. Nobody has 'control' over anyone else. We all have influence over each other.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quakerism if you're interested.
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gronkpan 2 Legit 2 Twit, Tue 15 May 2007, 13:15,
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any thing that claims to have the absolute truth and to be followed with faith without question is a dangerous thing
as it eliminates doubt - elimination of doubt and vagueness leads to beliving you hold the absolute truth, which means all those that don't adhere to it are wrong
this is the thinking of all fundamentalism and the thinking of the Nazis
I can sum up all religious thinking in 2 lines:
"everything in this book is true,
because the book says it is"
no other aspect of life is subjected to this level of absurdity
i'm not religious but I am spiritual
religion is about giving up personal responsibilty (not the opposite as most argue) through a structured set of coda (created by others), spirituality is about embracing it, unfortuanatley its the harder path which is why most people choose the religious one (I would class some forms of scientific 'faith' as this too)
(, Tue 15 May 2007, 13:25, Reply)
how to start a war or an argument:
bring up religion. it will never end well in a discussion and some one will be insulted. im happy with people telling me their views and opions, but not on my door step or when im in the street and they come up to me and start waving booklets and leaflets into my face.
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Captain Pilchard yay its easter!, Tue 15 May 2007, 13:34,
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they do that because they
belive they are right and you are wrong - without any doubt in their minds
.
(, Tue 15 May 2007, 13:40, Reply)
That's some nice pissage right there.
That's generally what annoys me about so many religious debates - people are usually arguing the same point, just with some small caveat that the other person won't agree with.
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gronkpan 2 Legit 2 Twit, Tue 15 May 2007, 13:43,
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I think it's more of an "I'm right, you're wrong" attitude that starts arguments and wars. Religion is just an easy subject to get this kind of thing going.
I think all religions have a lot they could learn from each other if people could just forget their egos for a few minutes.
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gronkpan 2 Legit 2 Twit, Tue 15 May 2007, 13:42,
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but quakers still belive in Christ
the derivative of Mythralism and sun worship (Sun of God)
did you know there were 17 dieties before the christ myth who were crucified for our sins and rose again?
rose again and celebrated in the time of year the sun rises in the northern hemisphere again after winter - also Dec 23 - a new Sun is born
the symbol of the cross is the ancient symbol of the sun
(, Tue 15 May 2007, 13:50, Reply)
There are plenty of quakers who aren't christians. Myself included.
I don't believe in a higher power as such. I believe we've all got something inside of us that we haven't been able to properly explain yet.
I don't believe in an afterlife.
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gronkpan 2 Legit 2 Twit, Tue 15 May 2007, 13:57,
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are you 100% sure ther isn't an afterlife? or the survival of some essence?
Im not 100% sure of anything
although it could be said there is only 1 thing any of us can be sure of
'awareness of being aware'
(, Tue 15 May 2007, 13:58, Reply)
Nobody has a better idea than the next person about what's going to happen after they die.
That doesn't mean I can't have an opinion on the subject.
Like I said earlier, it is important to always question things. No-one will have an answer until they die, and then they might not be around to discover it.
I'm sorry if you think I'm saying you should believe what I do.
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gronkpan 2 Legit 2 Twit, Tue 15 May 2007, 14:04,
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I'm a very anit-religious type
but that sounds kinda interesting
research time!
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VampireMonkeyOnSpeed Hold - Nudge - Replay?, Tue 15 May 2007, 16:54,
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That's kinda why I settled on quakerism.
There is no absolute truth. Everything is open for debate, and we're all still learning. It's called continuous revelation.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuous_revelation#Friends_.28Quakers.29
It's all about listening to your inner voice. Call it your soul, call it that little guy inside of you, call it your internal dialogue, call it your conscience, call it god, whatever. We all have something.
Some religions are about giving up responsibility, others are about taking responsibility and asking questions.
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gronkpan 2 Legit 2 Twit, Tue 15 May 2007, 13:38,
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They are fuckwits.
I once went to their U.K. headquarters. (See QOTW awnser on profile)
Wankers.
(, Tue 15 May 2007, 10:48, Reply)
That's a great story
I think it was the surveillance that got to me the most in the documentary. Paranoid and frightening.
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bachgammon has an unshakable alibi for, Tue 15 May 2007, 10:58,
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Why is it acceptable to berate Scientologists' beliefs,
just because their made-up story was made up more recently than other popular religions such as Islam and Christianity?
I'm not saying we should give the Scientologists a break, just apply the same disdain to all religions equally.
(, Tue 15 May 2007, 11:31, Reply)
for me
their stories are just as far fetched as the bible. But i think it's their behaviour that is upsetting people. I mean stalking a journalist! Anybody who takes alot of money in the name of religion should be accountable but they do not seem to think so.
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moogy boobles, Tue 15 May 2007, 11:47,
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I don't think
that its necessarily their belief system that gets peoples backs up. More the way that its inaccessible without handing over huge wads of cash.
Well, that ethos doesn't smack of sprituality and therefore religion, to me anyway.
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Fetid Mimsy Bouncing Back!, Tue 15 May 2007, 11:48,
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I haven't seen anyone here berate scientologists beliefs.
It's not like anyone is saying "OMG they believe in xenu and engrams LOL", they're talking about the fact that scientology actively teaches people to be, for want of a better word, cunts.
They destroy families and intimidate people. They take money from vulnerable and insecure people.
Sure, certain parts of other religions can be blamed for the same thing, but generally those factions don't follow the core teachings of the religion (ie "love thy neighbour" or "do unto others as you would have them do unto you".)
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gronkpan 2 Legit 2 Twit, Tue 15 May 2007, 11:54,
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Damn right!
what's all this god nonsense anyway. And as for Bhuddism, what a load of tosh.
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cumquat may lemon lime and bitter disappointment, Tue 15 May 2007, 12:32,
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Its hard to look at it anything other than a dangerous scam after this quote by hubbard:
"The way to make a million dollars is to start a religion."
source
www.don-lindsay-archive.org/scientology/start.a.religion.html
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cumquat may lemon lime and bitter disappointment, Tue 15 May 2007, 12:21,
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thank you for posting this
i forgot it was on, and was very intersting viewing. i dont know much about this 'cult' but after viewing this, im not sure i want to..
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Captain Pilchard yay its easter!, Tue 15 May 2007, 12:25,
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