I see your point,
if your point is that whatever I chose, I'm choosing it on the basis that I consider it moral, whether it is widely accepted as 'good' or not.

So, bearing in mind that I am not a philosopher and I don't even play one on the Internet - er, what's the point of having a moral obligation if there's no definition of morals?

No, I don't get it. I don't see how how you can make the assumption that everyone acts in a way that is right, good or justified. Sure, they can act in a way that they feel is right, good and justified, but that might conflict with everyone else's ideas of what is right, good or justified, therefore if you can't establish a fundamental definition of what is morally acceptable and what is not, why bother talking about morals at all?

I'm a bit RIS. We don't get to do this sort of shit in computer science.
( crackhouseceilidhband Fuck off back to Mumsnet, Tue 23 Dec 2008, 12:31, 1 reply)

Well...
The fact that noone can agree on the right thing isn't going to demonstrate that there's not a right answer to be had in principle: "can't agree" in this sense simply means that there's an ongoing dispute, not that its irresolvable. Indeed, if everyone did agree, they might still be wrong - unless you think that morality is simply a matter of consensus. (I don't.)

So how would we resolve the debate? Well, in this case, there'd be a second-level argument - some people might look to the outcomes and hope to be able to say that the world is objectively better or worse for this or that action, or for this or that kind of action (and there's a third-level debate for you...). Others might think that outcomes are irrelevant, and that some things are just right or wrong.

What I meant by my claim about people's actions is pretty much as you say. Imagine the opposite: it doesn't make sense. Not just would we have to imagine someone acting wrongly, but someone acting because it's wrong or admittedly not worth doing. (A terrorist planting a bomb might think his action is wrong, and do it with regret, but think that it will be worth it in the long run. In this case, the dispute is about his beliefs concerning justification. Still, that he thinks his action is justified seems indisputable.)

The point is, I suppose, that talking about this stuff is indicative of a belief that there is an aswer to be had. Were we to abandon that belief, then we'd also have to relinquish a lot else besides - the very idea that people act for a scrutable reason would seem to be in danger. That seems like a very high price to pay.

There are problems with my account - it's hard to see how Hitler could have misidentified the good so radically, for example. But this is a problem that I share with everyone else and every other account, so it doesn't bother me all that much.
( Enzyme is powered by sunlight, Tue 23 Dec 2008, 12:41, closed)