I live in Poland, and I'm happy with the result.
Almost every argument in support of the EU fails:

1) There has been no stability. How rapidly people have forgotten the 2008 banking crisis that affected every single European nation, or the 2010 PIIGS crisis that drained Europe's coffers dry, or the 2015 CHF unpegging that sent the Euro tumbling to new lows and the costs of loans soaring. Most EU states are sitting at or near 0% interest rates, EU exports are dwindling and there's no room left to manouvre.

2) Employment. The average worker is either on the brink of unemployment, hired on junk contracts or living in a squalid rural region that has failed to develop in decades despite EU subsidies year after year after year. States east of Berlin have not seen any significant rise in the standard of living despite 12 years of EU membership. 38% of the EU budget goes on agriculture and regional development, and for what? Nearly a million Poles still worked out it was better to go to the UK to earn a crust rather than try fix their own economy. The youth generation all along the mediterranean cost is completely and utterly fucked in terms of employment opportunities.

3) Democracy. Wasn't it great when the Irish had to revote the Lisbon treaty until they got it right? Wasn't it great how France and the Netherlands were denied a referendum on it, because they'd already rejected the EU Constitution (which is the Lisbon Treaty in all but name). Aren't the Greeks happy that their anti-austerity government was completely handicapped by the EU to force through changes the electorate didn't want, in order to receive bailouts for debts the Greeks never should have had in the first place? Isn't Poland doing great, with it's unresolved Constituional Crisis that breaks manifold EU laws but Brussels is powerless to resolve?

A huge number of the failsafes and social laws the EU enacts are useless, since the nation states already have those laws in place anyway, such as maternity leave and pay, or have opt-outs such as the working hours directive. Those that didn't already exist are easily avoided, such as Italy failing to meet its Maastricht criteria on inflation for 23 years, or Poland forcing people to set up single-person companies so that employers don't have to provide paid leave, or Greece hiding its public debt through contracts with private banks.

The whole organisation is a joke; an unwieldy behemoth torn apart by FUJIMAR principles, ineffectual laws, and the bullying of weaker states by the more powerful ones (France and Germany) to maintain an unsustainable economy and social divide, and I'm glad the UK will no longer be a part of it.
( Grrrmachine the indifference engine, Tue 28 Jun 2016, 8:47, 24 replies)

Shouldn't that be "FUJIAR"?
Or "FUJIAAR", if you want to do away with the apostrophe?

Anyway, resurgent Tory right is the only rebuttal I feel compelled to offer, at this stage. It ought to be a fine time for the Labour Party to rally around Corbyn in order to offer some genuine opposition, but we can all see how unlikely that is. A real shame - if they cosied up to the Scots, they could probably defeat the government at every vote.
( monster munch person, man, woman... camera... TV?, Tue 28 Jun 2016, 10:05, closed)

Labour ceased to be the party of the "working man" a long time ago.
Now it's split down the middle with Socialist Worker beardies on one side and Blairite Tories on the other, when what the country really needs is an effective opposition somewhere in between.
(localboy purveyor of pisspoor puns, Tue 28 Jun 2016, 10:09, closed)

I reckon we'll see an actual, proper split in the Labour Party, sometime soon.
That'll be the end of it, and either the Greens or LibDems will have to pick up the pieces. Or Nicola Sturgeon can begin a quiet coup.
( monster munch person, man, woman... camera... TV?, Tue 28 Jun 2016, 10:12, closed)

The fact that the British populace has soundly rejected Labour's socialism since the 1970s
should tell you everything you need to know about the British being part of Europe's Grand Socialist Project. And since the LibDem's completely betrayed the current generation of university-goers in 2010, they don't stand a chance in hell either.

Simple fact is, the old don't want to pay for anyone else any more, and the young are too lazy and self-absorbed to bother voting at all, which is why both the national elections and this referendum turned out the way it did.
( Grrrmachine the indifference engine, Tue 28 Jun 2016, 10:10, closed)

We might have had a very different government if the LibDems had bothered to push for a vote on full PR, rather then settling for AV.
The British people might not be ready for a full fat Socialist Workers Utopia, but there's plenty who are more left leaning then our parliament would have you believe.
( monster munch person, man, woman... camera... TV?, Tue 28 Jun 2016, 10:16, closed)

PR would have led to a Tory-UKIP coalition from the last election.

(Baggenfrock get fucked, Tue 28 Jun 2016, 10:19, closed)

If you just transferred the numbers from the actual election to a hypothetical one, yes,
but you might have found that, with a different system in place, more people would have voted, and voted differently.
( monster munch person, man, woman... camera... TV?, Tue 28 Jun 2016, 10:22, closed)

might have, might not have, dear mm
you're arguing a hypothetical result based on might haves and maybes.
( Grrrmachine the indifference engine, Tue 28 Jun 2016, 10:26, closed)

probably, yes
but 13% of people voted UKIP when there was no real chance of them winning even a single seat. They might have got a much higher proportion of the vote had those votes actually counted (along with the greens and other mental parties).
(Baggenfrock get fucked, Tue 28 Jun 2016, 10:29, closed)

Grrry is right to point out the futility of arguing "might have beens".

( monster munch person, man, woman... camera... TV?, Tue 28 Jun 2016, 10:35, closed)

arguing "might have beens". EU membership
( Grrrmachine the indifference engine, Tue 28 Jun 2016, 10:40, closed)

Yeah, we should have done this last week.

( monster munch person, man, woman... camera... TV?, Tue 28 Jun 2016, 10:44, closed)

just sayin PR might not have been our salvation

(Baggenfrock get fucked, Tue 28 Jun 2016, 10:41, closed)

Grrry ought to point out the futility of arguing "might not have beens".

( monster munch person, man, woman... camera... TV?, Tue 28 Jun 2016, 10:46, closed)

maybe
but until he does its all hypothetical
(Baggenfrock get fucked, Tue 28 Jun 2016, 10:51, closed)

arguing "might not have putting ketchup on your baked
( Grrrmachine the indifference engine, Tue 28 Jun 2016, 10:51, closed)

Food threads belong on Off Topic, sunshine.

( monster munch person, man, woman... camera... TV?, Tue 28 Jun 2016, 10:58, closed)

it's too late to discuss should-have-beans now, monster munch

( Grrrmachine the indifference engine, Tue 28 Jun 2016, 11:00, closed)

We need another nice big World War.

( drimble he'd been white, he'd been black, Tue 28 Jun 2016, 19:57, closed)

Mass extinction event
Such as asteroid, Yellowstone, bird flu etc
( brown-wings Made with three kinds of butter, Fri 1 Jul 2016, 9:13, closed)

Fair enough, but
...

1) I'm pretty sure the EU didn't cause toxic mortgages in the USA and malpractices in the City. That's what caused the crisis. The mediterranean countries were hit hardest and a few flaws came to light that might otherwise have remained in shadows. These were faults by individual countries though, it was not EU policy to audit countries. Since then the northern EU countries have pushed strict measures onto those countries in ways that are not always helpful for a quick resolution but serve to bail out German and Dutch banks that are invested in those countries and to shore up the euro.
I disagree with this but it doesn't make me want to leave the EU. And since the UK has never been in the euro it has little baring on the referendum.

2) would the average worker been better or worse off if they'd staid outside the EU? The transition in Poland in the 90's was a mess if I remember rightly.

3) I agree on Greece, their actions threatened the Euro so the northern european countries stomped on them for their own interests. But France and the Netherlands are sovereign nations that are not denied referenda by some evil-doer in Brussels. If a country cares enough about the EU to vote in a government on the proviso that they hold a referendum on leaving the EU, then that happens as we've seen. I think Brexit proves there is no limit on the democratic choices of individual countries.

There is no democratic deficit. Most people in the Netherlands don't want a referendum and really resented the referendum on the trade treaty with the Ukraine that was forced through by a minority lobby last month. But even then the referendum still went ahead and our PM has told the other countries he cannot accept the treaty without some clear amendments about no steps towards candidacy and no military collaboration. Again, where is the democratic deficit?
(Bosch balls, Wed 29 Jun 2016, 13:47, closed)