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[challenge entry] I may have a problem with BMW drivers

From the If Ads Told The Truth challenge. See all 454 entries (closed)

(plankton, Thu 5 Apr 2007, 14:47, archived)
# this is such an unfair sterotype
I once knew a bmw driver who wasn't that much of a wanker
(I helped save b3ta! Griffin Saver Something, something, 2006, something., Thu 5 Apr 2007, 14:48, archived)
# you say it as if that is an achievement
mah
(jamezp1, Thu 5 Apr 2007, 14:49, archived)
# Just one though
The exception that proves the rule.....
(Mrs Trellis GIN, Thu 5 Apr 2007, 14:49, archived)
# I'm not sure that phrase makes sense
Surely when a scientist makes a theory, as soon as it's disproven once, the theory can no longer apply untill it has been revised
(I helped save b3ta! AutoPrawn is glad we're living in the future now, Thu 5 Apr 2007, 14:51, archived)
# It is
'prove' as in 'test'not prove as in ... erm .. 'prove', though.
(I helped save b3ta! Debbilgrrrrl is kinda back, Thu 5 Apr 2007, 14:52, archived)
# Ah, Falsification in practice
(I helped save b3ta! NinjaBadger hides in the bushes and gives you TB., Thu 5 Apr 2007, 14:52, archived)
# That's "prove" in an original sense
of "test". Honest!
(I helped save b3ta! oldpeopleinthecemetery, Thu 5 Apr 2007, 14:53, archived)
# Please clarify further
(I helped save b3ta! AutoPrawn is glad we're living in the future now, Thu 5 Apr 2007, 14:57, archived)
# As plankton said v
there was an older meaning of "prove" which was "test". Certainly the German for "test" is "prufen", which was in use in an Aglicised way. The phrase was coined with this in mind, then the meaning of "prove" changed to something more definite. Dunno how that happened though.
(I helped save b3ta! oldpeopleinthecemetery, Thu 5 Apr 2007, 15:02, archived)
# Ah, you see
prove also means "to test" as in proving ground, so "the exception that proves the rule", means "the case that tests the hypothesis".
(plankton, Thu 5 Apr 2007, 14:56, archived)
# And an exception would always prove the rule wrong
So in effect, the phrase means
"the example shows that the rule is incorrect"?
(I helped save b3ta! AutoPrawn is glad we're living in the future now, Thu 5 Apr 2007, 14:58, archived)
# er
no, it means the exception that test whether the rule is correct or not.

but.

but, that doesn't make sense. hmmm.
(I helped save b3ta! The Alchemist king of the needlessly complicated, Thu 5 Apr 2007, 15:01, archived)
# The exception
(to the usual course of things) might sometimes prove (or provide evidence for) the rule as well. This would strengthen the rule.
(I helped save b3ta! oldpeopleinthecemetery, Thu 5 Apr 2007, 15:05, archived)
# so, what
Still not following.

Rule: BMW drivers are wankers
Exception: Man X is not a wanker and owns one.

Surely that means the rule is defeated?
(I helped save b3ta! AutoPrawn is glad we're living in the future now, Thu 5 Apr 2007, 15:07, archived)
# But surely an exception by definition
is an instance or case not conforming to the general rule.

So If you try test a rule with an exception, the rule will always fail
(I helped save b3ta! AutoPrawn is glad we're living in the future now, Thu 5 Apr 2007, 15:05, archived)
# The exception is something unusual.
So if you know something about human, you can asked whether it applies to all animals as well. "Humans are made from jellybeans. So are monkeys. Therefore monkeys (the exception) proves (tests) the rule for all animals".
(I helped save b3ta! oldpeopleinthecemetery, Thu 5 Apr 2007, 15:09, archived)
# Logic rules hurt my brain
(I helped save b3ta! AutoPrawn is glad we're living in the future now, Thu 5 Apr 2007, 15:10, archived)
# ah, I should have been clearer
"exception" also means to leave out or ignore something, so more the phrase could be "this situation where there is something missing tests the hypothesis". Or something like that.

as in the rule is "I usually eat bananas", the exception to the rule would be "I sometimes eat apples." The second statement validates the first. It doesn't prove it, or disprove it, merely adds substance to it.
(plankton, Thu 5 Apr 2007, 15:07, archived)
# So this exception is a piece of information that has been left out so the rule can be applied?
(I helped save b3ta! AutoPrawn is glad we're living in the future now, Thu 5 Apr 2007, 15:09, archived)
# or that
this case where the situation is different demonstrates that the rule exists.

Edit - I should add that it really applies to rules where there aren't absolutes - i.e. "I always eat lard", it has to be of the type "I sometimes eat lard" or "I generally wash down lunch with a helping of fat". That way you can have a exception where I don't eat fat that demonstrates that I mostly do eat fat.

Although I don't eat lard myself.
(plankton, Thu 5 Apr 2007, 15:12, archived)
# Exactly
(I helped save b3ta! oldpeopleinthecemetery, Thu 5 Apr 2007, 15:14, archived)
# That makes sense
thanks
(I helped save b3ta! AutoPrawn is glad we're living in the future now, Thu 5 Apr 2007, 15:30, archived)
# the problem was that
the original reply didn't match the correct usage of the term. In fact the more correct "exception that proves the rule" for "all BMW drivers are wankers" is "People who drive Rovers are terribly nice". That is, the second statement that describes those people who are different shows that the first statement is correct.

Here endeth today's discussion.
(plankton, Thu 5 Apr 2007, 16:31, archived)
# nah
we just kill everyone who knows about the exception

or talks about it

even in theory.

GO SUPER SCIENTIST NINJA CABAL!
(I helped save b3ta! The Alchemist king of the needlessly complicated, Thu 5 Apr 2007, 14:58, archived)
# Finally, something I can agree on
(I helped save b3ta! AutoPrawn is glad we're living in the future now, Thu 5 Apr 2007, 15:00, archived)
# Yeah, not all us wankers drive BMWs.
(Mr Eraserhead Why aren't you a lemon?, Thu 5 Apr 2007, 14:49, archived)
# Hah hah!
(I helped save b3ta! RiffRaff lurking like a lurky thing, Thu 5 Apr 2007, 14:51, archived)
# My dad has one you bastard :p
(I helped save b3ta! NinjaBadger hides in the bushes and gives you TB., Thu 5 Apr 2007, 14:49, archived)
# So did my dad
before he decided to really spoil it and buy a Volvo.
(plankton, Thu 5 Apr 2007, 14:52, archived)
# I had a volvo once
it was shit
(I helped save b3ta! RiffRaff lurking like a lurky thing, Thu 5 Apr 2007, 14:53, archived)
# I drive a 10 year old suzuki.
It's hardly ever had a problem.
(I helped save b3ta! NinjaBadger hides in the bushes and gives you TB., Thu 5 Apr 2007, 14:59, archived)
# I've got a 10 year old VW
It's shit. I suspect my next car will be from the Land of the Rising Sun.
(I helped save b3ta! RiffRaff lurking like a lurky thing, Thu 5 Apr 2007, 15:01, archived)
# I had a dog once
it was shitzu
(plankton, Thu 5 Apr 2007, 15:00, archived)
# I had a shit once
it was like gravy
(I helped save b3ta! RiffRaff lurking like a lurky thing, Thu 5 Apr 2007, 15:02, archived)