I don't see why. That sounds like the same argument as 'stop talking about brexit now the vote is over'.
None of his failures have gone away, just because he won another leadership election. I don't care much about the fate of the Labour Party; I just want to see competent opposition to the government, and he isn't it. That a self-selecting group of people favour him means very little, really.
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joefish It's hard for thee to kick against the pricks, Mon 26 Sep 2016, 13:54,
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If you want to see competent opposition
Then you need to actively attempt to get it: at the moment, the group of people who want a left leaning labour leader to provide opposition have comprehensively, overwhelmingly won that argument - Corbyn is a side effect of that, not a catalyst, but the cat won't easily go back in the bag.
The problem is that all the people saying "we want a competent opposition" as an argument against Corbyn aren't mobilising to bring it about; if there aren't enough people who strongly want a more "moderate", or "centre" Labour leader who care enough about it join the party, then it's fair enough that that option doesn't win.
The centre needs to stop blaming Corbyn and Labour's membership, and start thinking about how to create and sell a vision.
I'm just getting sick of the stock replies by both sides. It's clearly nonsense to be like "LOL they said Corbyn is unelectable but he won the labour leadership" when any superficial analysis of that argument shows that it's obviously not the same thing at all. But it's also ridiculous to accuse Corbyn/the left of simply reinforcing their own positions in an echo chamber when what has actual;y happened is that the left have currently got a more attractive vision - how else would they have inspired the growth they have inspired? And why can't the centre of the party mobilise more people? And if it's simply apathy on the part of the electorate who just want credible centrist politics, then surely the job of people with ideas and a desire to change things is to change where the centre is?
(, Mon 26 Sep 2016, 14:20, Share, Reply)
They haven't won any argument.
The majority of long term Labour members, likely to be ex-Labour members wanted him gone. Its the majority of his funclub/cult/entriest supporters that simply used an utterly stupid change to the Labour Party leadership rules implemented by Milliband and McCluskey to vote him in. Highly unlikely they'll ever get rid of him now as the lunatics are pretty much behind of the 16 wheeler heading over a massive cliff.
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slartifartfast When all around are losing their heads, duck., Mon 26 Sep 2016, 14:31,
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You can call them a fanclub or entryists all you like...
...but the facts are that when the selection process was widened, it's the left who captured people's imaginations; there aren't 250,000 trots out there.
What that says is that there is no real appetite in the electorate to make the Labour Party remain as a party who suggest slightly less bad versions of Tory policy: I keep seeing people saying "well done, you're condemning the vulnerable to Tory rule", but in a lot of cases, the vulnerable have deserted labour anyway in recent years, and won't be attracted back easily by a centrist Labour Party - there's no clear easy route back to power for any form of the Labour Party.
(, Mon 26 Sep 2016, 15:35, Share, Reply)
Recent additions to the labour membership come from the electorate
And if there were centrists passionate enough about wanting this centre Labour Party, they could also have joined - but they didn't, in enough numbers to take the party in the direction they want to go in.
Which is their lookout; if you want to be able to vote for a specific type of party, help create that party, or help shape a party. At the moment, it's a fact that a centre Labour Party simply does not inspire people, has no vision, and wasn't even able to put forward a credible candidate against Corbyn.
(, Mon 26 Sep 2016, 17:28, Share, Reply)
You seem to be under the impression that
"A member of a set A is also a member of any set B which is a superset of A"
implies that
"A member of B must also be a member of A"
This is patently not the case.
You see, there is another set, C, a subset of B, whose intersection with A is practically the empty set. This set C is vastly bigger than A.
A = recent additions to the labour party membership
B = the electorate
C = people who think Corbyn is a dangerous idealogue
(, Mon 26 Sep 2016, 20:47, Share, Reply)
No, that's not what I'm saying at all
What I am saying is simply that if enough people have joined a political party to change the direction in which it is going, and if a year later the party establishment hasn't been able to counter that with their own vision, inspiring others, then it's hard to see a good reason why this direction, which is perfectly in line with Labour Party ideals over the years, shouldn't be tested at a general election, with the support of the party.
Just as the left of the party sucked it up and leafletted and campaigned under Blair, and through Clause IV
(, Mon 26 Sep 2016, 20:58, Share, Reply)
OK,
but it will be tested at a general election and it'll almost certainly fail.
(, Mon 26 Sep 2016, 21:23, Share, Reply)
Quite possibly. And that'll be the time for different ideas
But Labour failed in the last two general elections and haven't even been able to present a coherent enough vision to convince their own membership that Corbyn isn't the best chance.
This is what the idea of a cult misses; it's not about Corbyn for most (only idiots blindly support Corbyn the man) - it's that the centre/right of the party have comprehensively failed, nd then failed to learn - Corbyn emerged as a candidate as the only possible way for Labour to try something different, against other candidates who already looked exactly like the equivalent of the Tories' wilderness years leaders. Considering how comprehensively the left of the party have won the leadership, and increased membership (and for all the accusations, it's not "entryism"; there aren't 250k trots) the only productive thing to do if one would prefer Corbyn to be prime minister to May, is to support Corbyn up to 2020, and do what we can.
(, Mon 26 Sep 2016, 21:56, Share, Reply)