The Pope
.
Is it just me or do other think there's something profoundly wrong about having a Pope who was a member of the Hitler Youth?

Isn't it on the job description or something?

SITUATIONS VACANT:

The Pope.

Axe-murderers, atheists, women and members of The Hitler Youth need not apply.

*Kiddie-fiddlers are OK though


Cheers
( Legless Mister Stabby - shanks for the memory, Thu 17 Jul 2008, 12:30, 48 replies)

...
His having been in the Hitlerjugend doesn't bother me all that much - pretty much everyone was, and it was over 60 years ago. It's not like he was superintendant of Dachau.

However, he does sound a bit too much like Peter Lorre for comfort...
( Enzyme is powered by sunlight, Thu 17 Jul 2008, 12:32, closed)

Pope-tastic
This new Pope is alive at least. The one before had been dead for ten years, and was controlled by a small man inside the dress (they hollowed him out).

So yeah... Fuckin' meat-puppets.

Also, why does he look like a vampire?
Have you ever actually seen him touch Holy Water?
( Cawl, Thu 17 Jul 2008, 12:34, closed)

don't you have to be
at least 70, half dead and possibly bonkers to be popey nowadays anyway?

its like the catholic version of a full salary pension.
(Halfy By light alone, Thu 17 Jul 2008, 12:35, closed)

Err

( Legless Mister Stabby - shanks for the memory, Thu 17 Jul 2008, 12:37, closed)

The pope
He couldn't be any more scary if he were played by Christopher Lee.

It's a bit like Dr Who - Pope "regenerates" every few years with some amusing eccentricities thrown in for good measure.

I vote for Tom Baker as the next Pope.

*Edit*

Clicks for Darth Ratzinger
(Bicycle Repairman "you're also a bit of a wanker", Thu 17 Jul 2008, 12:38, closed)

two clicks
one for the post and one for the emperor pictures!
(Halfy By light alone, Thu 17 Jul 2008, 12:38, closed)

^That picture^
Seventeen kinds of brilliant!
( Enzyme is powered by sunlight, Thu 17 Jul 2008, 12:38, closed)

Many clicks
for the picture...

Aces.
( Moey, Thu 17 Jul 2008, 12:46, closed)

job application...
Then again, under EU rules, don't they need to open the job up to Muslim, gay and female applications in order to avoid prosecution under discrimination laws...?

Pope Abu Hamza anyone?
(Chad, Thu 17 Jul 2008, 12:52, closed)

Yep got to agree with Enzyme
You had to be in the Hitler Youth or you'd face the consequences... Even then if the pope joined voluntarily, you've got to remember that had Hitler not been such a racist and provoked a war he could possibly have been the greatest German leader of the 20th century - giving Germans their self-respect and hope back etc.
( Uncle Phallus Strong like fly, fast like elephant, Thu 17 Jul 2008, 12:52, closed)

apparently in Germany
Almost everyone of a particular age was in the Hitler Youth or the lesser-known equivalents (it was compulsory).

But if religion really did help people become more moral as it claims, then you'd think that someone, out of the millions of German Catholics, would've been part of the tiny minority that weren't...
(apeloverage committed the vile act of onanism on, Thu 17 Jul 2008, 12:54, closed)

Apeloverage...
You are forgetting that The Catholic Centre Party (and the right wing elite) allowed Hitler to invoke Article 48 and become a dictator rather than a Chancellor. If any subset of society was gonna be in the Hitler Youth, the pope sure as hell woulda been in it.
( Uncle Phallus Strong like fly, fast like elephant, Thu 17 Jul 2008, 12:57, closed)

Eh?
"provoked a war"?

He fucking *started* the war.

And he gave Germans back their hope did he? As long as you were'nt Jewish, a Gypsy, mentally or physically disabled, a communist or someone who he just didn't like the look of.

It's that your idea of a great man........
( Legless Mister Stabby - shanks for the memory, Thu 17 Jul 2008, 12:59, closed)

@Chad
Fuck off back to the Daily Mail.

@apeloverage - there were plenty of anti-Nazis. Still, it's worth noting Arendt's point - by the end of the war, the GI mantra that the only good German was a dead one came close to being true, because the Nazis had killed all those who publicly opposed them.

EDIT: the picture is now on my office door. Yay!
( Enzyme is powered by sunlight, Thu 17 Jul 2008, 12:59, closed)

@Enzyme
Jeez, you're a little cross this morning. Everything okay over there?

Someone get him a kitten, stat!
( The Resident Loon Not a demographic. Do not measure., Thu 17 Jul 2008, 13:08, closed)

@The Loon
I think he's a bit pissed off that a fascist is trying to identify with him.

And I don't blame him.

Anyone who thinks that Hitler was a great man is seriously disturbed.

Cheers
( Legless Mister Stabby - shanks for the memory, Thu 17 Jul 2008, 13:11, closed)

Woah
When Hitler revealed his true colours and showed he was insane and actually wanted to exterminate people that is the point where he reserved for himself a place in the innermost circle of hell. I'm as anti-Hitler as the next guy, trust me.
But a lot came before that, he brought Germany full employment for example. When he showed he was serious about anti-semitism it was already too late and he had complete control over the country.
To say he started the war is a grotesque over simplification - it takes two to tango I'm afraid and the British, the French, the Russians (all those Hollywood heroes) were just as bellicose as Germany and Italy. In fact Hitler didnt want a war, just a revision of Germany's territories - he didnt take the threat of war from Britain over Poland seriously.
Just to clarify, I'm not a neo-Nazi ffs, but the guy was a skilled politician and if he'd not been racist and oppressive he could have lead Germany to great things.
( Uncle Phallus Strong like fly, fast like elephant, Thu 17 Jul 2008, 13:13, closed)

@TRL
Yeah - I'm fine. I'm just in the mood for bursting a few balloons.
( Enzyme is powered by sunlight, Thu 17 Jul 2008, 13:17, closed)

@Phallus
A revision of territories?

That sounds nice.

I'm wrong. He was a saint, a positive saint.

Cheers
( Legless Mister Stabby - shanks for the memory, Thu 17 Jul 2008, 13:18, closed)

Also
"Jewish, a Gypsy, mentally or physically disabled, a communist or someone who he just didn't like the look of."
You honestly think people in Britain at that time werent even a little bit racist? Homosexuality for example was still illegal at this time. Where was the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd hollocaust of Jews? That's right, Britain.
( Uncle Phallus Strong like fly, fast like elephant, Thu 17 Jul 2008, 13:18, closed)

Hitler was not a great man
but he certainly accomplished impressive things. Evil and terrible, perhaps, but impressive- he took a demoralized and impoverished country and turned it into an industrial giant. That's no small matter.

'Course, the whole genocide thing kinda puts one off a bit...

EDIT: Glad to hear it, Enzyme. I was getting a little worried that the normally cheerful and witty person I know was getting angry with us. Carry on...
( The Resident Loon Not a demographic. Do not measure., Thu 17 Jul 2008, 13:18, closed)

Uncle Phallus
Invoking the fact that the Brits were no saints is hardly relevant. For sure, the Brits and the Yanks committed war-crimes. Probably some ought to have been hanged at Nuremburg - "Bomber" Harris in particular was easily one of the most repulsive men in Europe. That's hardly an exculpation of Hitler.
( Enzyme is powered by sunlight, Thu 17 Jul 2008, 13:21, closed)

Say What?
OK.

Give some links to the 1st, 2nd and 3rd holocausts.

(And I bet they're all from white-power sites...)
( Legless Mister Stabby - shanks for the memory, Thu 17 Jul 2008, 13:21, closed)

@Legless...
He might be thinking of the York pogrom in (?) the 12^th century. No better than the German version, really - just not so technically advanced.

EDIT: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_England#Massacres_at_London_and_York_.281189.E2.80.931190.29
( Enzyme is powered by sunlight, Thu 17 Jul 2008, 13:23, closed)

It's all gone a bit serious on QOTW today
Here's some kittens that came to visit my apartment while I was on holiday last week


( rofl harris, Thu 17 Jul 2008, 13:25, closed)

well, here's the thing:
Catholicism, like all religions, claims to be able to help people act more morally.

Logically, either the Pope is chosen for being exceptionally moral, or he's not.

If he is, then the best they could do out of roughly 1 billion people was someone who went along with what everyone else was doing (and yes, he was very young, but no one seems to have put forward any examples of his exceptional deeds in later life which made up for that).

If he isn't, then a man is chosen to make infallible pronouncements on morality, which will be taken seriously at least by millions of people, who isn't expected to be particularly moral himself.
(apeloverage committed the vile act of onanism on, Thu 17 Jul 2008, 13:25, closed)

@apeloverage
Define "morally".
( Enzyme is powered by sunlight, Thu 17 Jul 2008, 13:27, closed)

In the middle ages, yes
but anti-jewish sentiment had existed for many, many years - as uncomfortable as that makes us. All I'm saying is much of what Hitler was saying was not that radically different to what had been said over and over again in the past. I'm just trying to give context to why the pope may have joined the Hitler Youth.
Legless, you are clearly impassioned about this and I really respect that but could you stop calling me a white supremesist, I REALLY HATE HITLER. I wish Stresseman had continued, that he'd been alive to be a more moderate revisionist and pulled Germany through the depression without her slipping into the hands of extremists, I really do.
Once again, Hitler disgusts me but I'm trying to appreciate all of the arguement.
( Uncle Phallus Strong like fly, fast like elephant, Thu 17 Jul 2008, 13:28, closed)

Comparisons in modern times
We can sit in comfy chairs and debate the parellels between Hitler's actions and whatever Britain was guilty of until we're blue in the face.

However, Britain did not introduce a mechanized means of mass killing people with a view to genocide - unlike the death camps of Nazi Germany. Yes, the bombing of Dresden was designed to kill and maim, but not to exterminate the German people.

You can argue that British concentration camps in the Boer War and the chemical bombing of Kurdish villagers during 1921 might have parallel. However, neither end was ever intended to be the extermination of an ethnic group.

I'm sorry, but Hitler was a massive cunt. He was responsible for millions of needless deaths and in the end blamed the very Volk he'd pledged to lead for the failure of the Third Reich. By that time he'd put a gun to his head and that was that.

It should also be pointed out that the twentieth century was strewn with massive cunts, including Joe Stalin who also tried to commit genocide and killed 20 million of his own people, albeit without the application of a technological solution to the "problem".
(Bicycle Repairman "you're also a bit of a wanker", Thu 17 Jul 2008, 13:29, closed)

@enzyme
A pogram isn't a Holocaust. It's not even in the same ballpark - hell, it's not even the same game.

But, as a country, Britain has been fair-ish to the Jews. We taxed the living shit out of them, our Government borrowed money off them (and refused to pay it back) but we rarely slaughtered them - unlike our continental cousins.

Jews have, in the main, been safe in Britain for at least the last 600 years - apart for the extortion of course...

Cheers
( Legless Mister Stabby - shanks for the memory, Thu 17 Jul 2008, 13:30, closed)

Old Adolf as we used to call him
was a great painter. He did my hall, stairs and landing in a weekend, and cheap!
(bluemohawkz eating nine types of industrial pollution since, Thu 17 Jul 2008, 13:30, closed)

Never exterminated eh?
When the black death came, Britain couldn't blame the Jews like all the other European countires because, hell there just weren't any left to blame. Mass pogroms, deportation, fleeing all sounds very familiar doesn't it when you think of Nazi Germany?
( Uncle Phallus Strong like fly, fast like elephant, Thu 17 Jul 2008, 13:34, closed)

@PJM
you don't have to be sorry about calling Hitler a massive cunt.

And Legless, uncle phallus wasn't defending Hitler or calling him a saint by any means, there isn't any need to be like that. The fact remains that Hitler was a skilled politician, he took control of a country by telling them just what they wanted to hear. He's still a cunt, but he was a very dangerous cunt because he knew what he was doing.
(Bazongaloid, Thu 17 Jul 2008, 13:35, closed)

@Enzyme:
"Not going along with the Nazis".

This is a definition of morality which the Catholic Church and its critics agree on.

No one seems to be saying 'he was in the Hitler Youth, a fine body of young men' (or even that it's a duty to obey any government, no matter how wrong you might think it is, which is a view that some Christians have held) - they agree that it would've been a good thing had young Ratzinger defied the Nazis, but...

But what? But most people did the same, and he wasn't a war criminal.

In other words, he's not chosen for being exceptionally moral, by anyone's definition of the word.

But he also claims the right to dictate morality to the entire world.
(apeloverage committed the vile act of onanism on, Thu 17 Jul 2008, 13:38, closed)

@Ape
The Catholic church was largely complicit in failing to condemn the Nazis during the period 1933-45. Evidence persists that the Vatican knew of the holocaust too.

You also cannot condemn the Pope for being a member of the Hitler youth as a child, would you expect a ten year old boy to stand up to the Third Reich?
(Bicycle Repairman "you're also a bit of a wanker", Thu 17 Jul 2008, 13:41, closed)

Or just maybe
he's learned the errors of his ways over the past 70 or so years. He may very well be an extremely moral person now, for all we know.

On the other hand, historically there have been an awful lot of less-than-savory characters who have been popes. He would not lack for company...
( The Resident Loon Not a demographic. Do not measure., Thu 17 Jul 2008, 13:41, closed)

@Phallus , or the dick
Come on then. Post some links giving some sources.

Cheers
( Legless Mister Stabby - shanks for the memory, Thu 17 Jul 2008, 13:46, closed)

@Resident Loon
As you say he might be exceptionally moral now, he might not.

But where does the burden of proof lie?

Given that he's claimed, and exercised, the right to (literally) pontificate on morality, with the expectation that his words will be received as if God has spoken, I'd say that the burden of proof lies with him.

In other words people are entitled to ask for evidence of his right to do so, or conclude that he doesn't have the right.
(apeloverage committed the vile act of onanism on, Thu 17 Jul 2008, 13:47, closed)

@PJM
I'm not condemning him for being a member of the Hitler youth as a child.

The question isn't whether he's exceptionally bad and should be condemned. No one's claiming he was.

The question is whether he's exceptionally good, and so can speak about how everyone should live and expect to be obeyed. And yes, he does expect to be obeyed. Almost his first speech was about how there must only be 'one shepherd' ie all Christian denominations should accept Papal authority.

And yes, someone can be in the Hitler Youth and go on to be an exceptionally good person. But I'm saying let's see the evidence that he was one such.

The fact that no evidence is being offered, implies that the Church believes that no evidence is needed.

In other words, it implies that they don't believe that the Pope needs to be an exceptionally good person.
(apeloverage committed the vile act of onanism on, Thu 17 Jul 2008, 13:55, closed)

Urgh
All I'm saying is opinions like:
"Hitler was uniquely evil and it is a mystery why no-one even thought to stop him."
"Hitler concieved a world war and single-handedly started it."
These are just wrong, wrong, wrong! These are the views of a propaganda engine used to pull a country through 6 odd years of hell.
There's no need to get abusive mate and I was actually pretty shocked when you threw the ignorant "Nazi-sympathiser" card down.
I have a friend who lost a great-grandparent in Belson, I have never been so moved as when I went to Auschwitz - in fact one woman on the tour broke into tears.
But what if the pope didnt know about the camps, or believed full employment etc would usher in a golden age for Germany. That is my point.
( Uncle Phallus Strong like fly, fast like elephant, Thu 17 Jul 2008, 13:57, closed)

Yeah, Yeah, Yeah
She loves me.

But you've said that the British (you probably mean English) were responsible fot the 1st, 2nd and 3rd Holocausts.

I'd just like you to provide me with some links please.

Cheers


Edit: And you were surprised when I threw down the Nazi sympathiser card down when you said Hitler was a great man?
( Legless Mister Stabby - shanks for the memory, Thu 17 Jul 2008, 14:04, closed)

Personally
I think that seeing what the church has been guilty of in the past, a member of the Hitler youth is eminently qualified for the job.
( Madam Marlboro wonders if you've found her yet, Thu 17 Jul 2008, 14:08, closed)

All the holocaust stuff co es from this book:
www.amazon.co.uk/History-Britain-Edge-World-BC-AD/dp/0563487143/ref=pd_sim_b?ie=UTF8&qid=1216300153&sr=8-1
(I phail at linking)
Also if you want a view of the second world war that has conciously made an effort to detatch itself from war-time propaganda, I recommend reading:
www.amazon.co.uk/Origins-Second-World-War/dp/014013672X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1216300309&sr=1-1
( Uncle Phallus Strong like fly, fast like elephant, Thu 17 Jul 2008, 14:12, closed)

ok great
Not in great as in "they're greeaaattt" a la Tony the Tiger, but I couldn't bring about the reforms Hitler did that put Germany back on its feet.
( Uncle Phallus Strong like fly, fast like elephant, Thu 17 Jul 2008, 14:13, closed)

Ah
So your proofs come from links that you can only read if you go to Amazon and buy them.

Sorry mate, but you just seem to be digging yourself in deeper.

Google "holocaust". Try the 1st (first) holocaust, 2nd etc.

And you'll find that you're talking bollox.

There's a shitload of British history that we have no reason to be proud of but ill-treating the Jews (in comparison to our neighbours) isn't one of them.

Cheers
( Legless Mister Stabby - shanks for the memory, Thu 17 Jul 2008, 14:19, closed)

it is bizarre
that the jews seem to have been persecuted wherever and whenever they settled. isn't there something in the bible (and it's about 16 years since my last RE class!) about god telling the jews that they were his chosen people and would have to suffer for it?

without meaning to sound flippant, which i don't want to, even something as 21st century and civilised as the hampstead tennis club the other night demonstrated some horrendous anti-semitism on the part of otherwise seemingly intelligent people.

i don't mind racist jokes if they are good humoured enough - i'm nominally catholic, but i couldn't give a stuff about the popebashing above, for example - but when people mean it, and genuinely think that other people are beneath them or don't like them because of where they are from or their religion, it sickens me. listening in disgust to the WASPS, it seemed to me that it was the perceived clique-iness and exclusivity of the jewish community that really got up people's noses.

ffs. does any of it really matter compared to sickness, famine, flooding...... tchah!
( rachelswipe with a fork, Thu 17 Jul 2008, 14:25, closed)

Every minority has been seriously mistreated in Britain at one time or another, fact.
As for the books, they are the best source for the aruements as they wont just give you a little sound-bite for an arguement when can be easily mis-interpreted, they go on to fully explain.
The first book was made into a series by Schama which is on UKTV: History periodically.
As for Taylor's book, google Intentionalsts vs. Structuralists with relation to Hitler.
( Uncle Phallus Strong like fly, fast like elephant, Thu 17 Jul 2008, 14:25, closed)

Okay
moving on from the personal attacks, let's just re-visit uncle phallus' original comment, he did not at any time say that Hitler was a "great man" he said that, were it not for the racism and mass murder, he may have been remembered as one of the greatest leaders in history.

Now whether or not uncle pahllus is correct in this assertion and whether or not he is correct when he talks about earlier massacres of Jewish people by the british (or english, or anyone else) is beside the point, none of these comments make him a Nazi Sympathiser and attempts to portray him as such just make you look grumpy and petulant Legless.
(Bazongaloid, Thu 17 Jul 2008, 14:29, closed)