One from the other side
After years & years of being on the wrong end of the 'bad management' stick, I found myself promoted and given management of a department.

"Great!" I thought, "Now I can put all that shit experience to good use and be a really good manager!"

First up: The woman who is taking lots of sick leave & clearly has some personal problems. I'll have a chat with her, off the record, and see if we can help. Since I'm not totally naive, I'll ask someone from personnel along too. But still emphasise it's totally informal, not in the least disciplinary, no official record etc.

Cue massive tantrum, formal complaint to my boss, threats to involve ACAS, victimisation claim etc. etc. With the result that we had to take it formal, present her attendance records, and give her a formal written warning. She resolved it all by quitting anyway.

So, when the next management problem arose, what am I going to do? I kept it all formal, on the record this time: Verbal warning, 3 months to improve, consequences if you don't, no we are not going to "discuss it".

Of course, that made be a "bastard manager". But what, in all honesty, would you do?
(North Utsira South Utsira, Sun 13 Jun 2010, 11:25, 20 replies)

I would
round up all the shit cunts and shoot them.
my staff all tell me i'm a natural leader. No, Dictator. that's the word they use
(Bromley Daz, Sun 13 Jun 2010, 12:14, closed)

clearly,
I'd take the same reasonable, sympathetic approach again. You're supposed to be a manager, not merely some sort of arse-covering functionary.
(haberman is singing in the changes, Sun 13 Jun 2010, 13:27, closed)

clearly
you don't know what you're talking about.
( Ring Of Fire A petty, drooling belming butthurt retard., Sun 13 Jun 2010, 13:31, closed)

"I'll have a chat with her, off the record, and see if we can help"
Yeah, I did that once, and ended up loosing my job.

www.b3ta.com/questions/sexism/post605685


Wimmin have special protection in the workplace with potential unlimited payouts. So don't ever try and be helpful or informal with a female employee, it's not worth the trouble it can cause you.
( Ring Of Fire A petty, drooling belming butthurt retard., Sun 13 Jun 2010, 13:29, closed)

and it's people like you
that are the reason those payouts and protections exist in the first place.
( Amberl was stripey and dominated Europe, Sun 13 Jun 2010, 15:16, closed)

i think that needs some explanation.
if you don't mind?
ta.
( blaireau69 , the Cumbrian Travis Bickle., Sun 13 Jun 2010, 16:16, closed)

condemning
all black people as criminals on the basis of being mugged by one black person is known as racism. Condemning all gay people because you were hit on by one and you don't approve is known as homophobia. So I reserve the right to take the anecdote about one woman being a bitch as not being enough to condemn every woman in a profession. That's sexism
( Amberl was stripey and dominated Europe, Sun 13 Jun 2010, 16:54, closed)

but that's not what i think a proper reading of post 605685 and the resulting ADVICE tells us.
and i guess the meaning of the word WIMMIN is lost on you?
it refers specifically to (generally sexist) radical feminist types who display aggression towards all men, exactly the kind of behaviour you are complaining about.
"So don't ever try and be helpful or informal with a female employee, it's not worth the trouble it can cause you."
note use of the word "can", not "will".
( blaireau69 , the Cumbrian Travis Bickle., Sun 13 Jun 2010, 17:07, closed)

That's a nice justification.
Oddly enough WIMMIN meant nothing of the sort to me. Perhaps you were attempting to mock 'womyn' in which case I agree- it's a stupid word.

Not every woman who makes a complaint is a 'radical feminist type.' Do you genuinely not think that there is still a problem with sexist behaviour in the office, that no glass ceiling exists at all? How about stopping tarring women with one brush, and just take them on merit. Some women are bitches, some men are bastards. Other people are just generally cunts. We're all people.

Read the post that RingofFire linked to (the person I originally addressed). What it boils down to is that he will fundamentally choose a man over a woman for a job unless she is an exceptional candidate. Because he had *one* bad experience with a bitch of a woman. Wow. I really want to work with someone like him who has let one person colour his perception of an entire fucking gender.

If a man had done the same thing, do you think he would view all men with distrust? No. Because a man is not a representative of his gender within his job. A woman is. Anything a woman does is reflected on women in general- and that isn't right.

And if you want, you can shake your head pityingly and write me off as a radical feminist who just hates men. The opposite is true. I just happen to take people on who they are, rather than judge them by someone else who I've met who shares a characteristic with them
( Amberl was stripey and dominated Europe, Sun 13 Jun 2010, 17:34, closed)

Wow.
Wimmen don't half get all ranty on that internets. eh.
( Gooddeed89, Sun 13 Jun 2010, 20:10, closed)

ooooh
you a bad bad puddy tat.
(itsOnlyGoingToGetHairier, Mon 14 Jun 2010, 11:09, closed)

I think you're putting the cart before the horse
In my experience the more 'radical feminist types' tend to have a bit more intelligence and integrity. It's Tracey from accounts, who's late every day and shit at her work who's the first to HR.

The system put in place to protect wimmin is open to abuse, and is abused, to the point where if you get the wrong confluence of employee and people in HR, you are fucked.

I've learnt from bitter bitter experience what can happen, and I refuse to put myself in that situation again.
So if I have a female candidate that is borderline, I'm not going to take a chance, and I feel perfectly at ease with myself in doing so.
( Ring Of Fire A petty, drooling belming butthurt retard., Sun 13 Jun 2010, 20:34, closed)

On a similar but different note, I can understand why a small company might think twice about hiring a young woman of childbearing age. I worked for a small company in a specialised field and they needed to recruit from a shallow pool of people with relevant experience. When a key person (one of a management team of three working under the owner/boss) went on maternity leave, it was bloody difficult for them to recruit.

Money's not the issue - the government pay new mum's wages while her job is kept open - the problem is that you have to get someone to cover for a six month period. Then, if the sprog-dropper feels like it, she can choose to take a further six months off. It leaves things in limbo for what seems like forever.

Not saying it's right, but I am saying that in that position I would try to hire a male unless the female candidate was much, much better, or I had plans to impregnate her myself.
(slowly play it cool, Trig, Sun 13 Jun 2010, 21:23, closed)

yep
there needs to be a solution for this, and it is to give and enforce the same parental leave rights for both parents.

Not the Harmen route of ever increasing differences of employers liabilities between the sexes, it's madness.
( Ring Of Fire A petty, drooling belming butthurt retard., Sun 13 Jun 2010, 21:44, closed)

Sad isn't it?
That until the solution is worked out, that it's women who'll have to live with the thin end of that wedge. You know, people like me who have no plans to have children and hate the little shits and would still like to get a good job. We just become part of the statistics, because of course every woman wants children or is likely to get knocked up
( Amberl was stripey and dominated Europe, Mon 14 Jun 2010, 9:56, closed)

I think one part of the solution is dead simple to implement. When someone takes maternity leave, they have to state in advance how long they are going to be off for. At the moment you can say you're taking 26 weeks, and then 19 weeks into your leave you can change your mind. That's really nice for the new parent, but a burden on the employer. A bit like being able to take your weekend on Tuesday and Wednesday, as long as you give notice.

In the case I've alluded to above the woman was a lazy bitch who asked for a ridiculous pay rise whilst on maternity leave - I suspect it was a (hamfisted) attempt to start building a constructive dismissal case. Dealing with her was difficult per se. It might be colouring my judgement.
(slowly play it cool, Trig, Mon 14 Jun 2010, 14:01, closed)

Mmmm
Oh god, not the "if you said this about black people argument". Are you black? How do think black people feel getting dragged into every Internet argument as some sort of yard stick of abusing behavior?

AND

Why are you associating black people and mugging?
( Ring Of Fire A petty, drooling belming butthurt retard., Sun 13 Jun 2010, 21:08, closed)

:-D
Well, I was mugged by a black person once, and....
( ejlflop errrrrgs. Regularly., Sun 13 Jun 2010, 23:18, closed)

because its a common stereotype
and judging from your posts, I thought that's what you'd best understand
( Amberl was stripey and dominated Europe, Mon 14 Jun 2010, 9:59, closed)

What would I do?
These two approaches are highly polarised and unilateral: are you perchance a merkin?

Your instinct to be a "really good manager" sounds marvellous to me, but it's troublesome unless you really know why you wanted to talk to "the woman who was taking lots of sick leave". Be honest: Was your first priority
(a) to help her out of a problem and to progress, or
(b) to build a case for ousting someone you were convinced was swinging the lead?
Did you feel concern for her or did you go in thinking 'she's taking the piss'? While I hear the twinge about naïvety, you didn't need "someone from personnel" to be there if your only concern was her wellbeing: it seems you envisaged difficulty in tackling the subject.

Neither answer is wrong, but if your answer was 'b' you needed to be up front with her first off: 'You're taking too much time off sick, and that's causing problems for the business. If you've got a genuine issue let me help how I can, but otherwise we [and I use the word 'we' deliberately] need to improve your performance.' If you answered 'a', great, but did you ever really ask her what might be wrong and offer help in a way she would've clearly seen and understood?

Now, swinging the other way and placing every transaction on a formal footing is going against what seemed like a spot-on, instinctive philosophy of trying to deal with the problem maturely. Exorcising discussion from the process is counter-productive and wasteful. Go with the approach you felt when you got promoted: it could turn you around. As for your new approach, that way lies Gareth Keenan.

Good luck!
(Good old boy just like yer grandma!, Mon 14 Jun 2010, 0:42, closed)