being a woman makes her correct, K
give up
(Quintno EXPERIMENT RUINED CANCELLED, LEFT 4EVER, Tue 12 Jun 2012, 10:44, 1 reply, 12 years ago)

Fucking innit.

( Kroney, Tue 12 Jun 2012, 10:46, Reply)

She is right, though
oxforddictionaries.com/words/less-or-fewer
( tangledupinblue hairy badge with moving eyes, Tue 12 Jun 2012, 10:47, Reply)

Sure, if you consider an arbitrary decision a couple of hundred years back as gospel
"Less has always been used in English with counting nouns. Indeed, the application of the distinction between less and fewer as a rule is a phenomenon originating in the 18th century.

Alfred the Great (the first king of England) was a prolific writer and translator of the time, and used "less" with counting nouns, e.g. around 888 AD:[1]

Swa mid læs worda swa mid ma, swæðer we hit yereccan mayon.
With less words or with more, whether we may prove it."

That was from Merriam-Webster, which admittedly is American, but American English is often rather closer to Middle English than British English.

NB: Alfred the Great wasn't the first King of England, Aethelstan was.
( Kroney, Tue 12 Jun 2012, 10:49, Reply)

Why do you French have such problems with adhering to rules?
Ok, it might be acceptable when speaking Old English, but there are fewer people who can understand that nowadays.
( tangledupinblue hairy badge with moving eyes, Tue 12 Jun 2012, 10:55, Reply)

Except the vast majority of people
who still, and always have, used "less" where linguists tell them they should use "fewer". Language isn't degrading in this area, people have simply ignored an arbitrary ruling by linguists and carried on speaking the way they always have done.

Also, sentence structure is different. You could have used "less" up there, but the sentence would have been structured "but less people understand that" which, arguably, is a more efficient means of communicating the same sentiment.
( Kroney, Tue 12 Jun 2012, 10:59, Reply)

Is this about Agincourt?
Look, you need to get over it, ok?
We won.
( tangledupinblue hairy badge with moving eyes, Tue 12 Jun 2012, 11:06, Reply)

And you did so with less men.

( Kroney, Tue 12 Jun 2012, 11:09, Reply)

It doesn't sound right
it doesn't look right, and if you're going to accept an American dictionary over the OED, then you're nothing like as middle class as you think you are.

And you're also still wrong.
(berk, Tue 12 Jun 2012, 11:14, Reply)

I accept a thousand years of English usage
over a few nobs in the 18th century, yes.

Also Alfred wasn't an American, but a native speaker of the original English language. He trumps the OED.
( Kroney, Tue 12 Jun 2012, 11:16, Reply)

i hope you both get word cancer

(Quintno EXPERIMENT RUINED CANCELLED, LEFT 4EVER, Tue 12 Jun 2012, 11:21, Reply)

The original English language?
Sure. And that's the same as modern English, is it? Language evolves. It so happens to evolved, in this case, to include a rule which dictates the correct usage of one word vs another in the case of quantitative nouns.
I would like to add that the current edition of the Merriam Webster, which you have quoted as a source in your favour, actually says that 'fewer refers to number among things that are counted, and less refers to quantity or amount among things that are measured.' IE, it proves my original point, not yours. It does go on to say that in colloquial usage either are acceptable, but only one is technically correct.

I would rather be technically correct, and a pedant, than a mis-educated, barely literate cretin like the vast majority of users of the English language, thank you.
(berk, Tue 12 Jun 2012, 11:42, Reply)

You seem to be getting a little cross.
What I have said is that people have always used "less" as a counting noun and that a rule saying that isn't acceptable only came about a couple of hundred years ago as a result of a few people deciding they didn't like it. I would also point out that "colloquial" usage means, in this context, everybody that speaks the language today and throughout the entire history of the language and that the people who insist on "fewer" are in the minority now and have been throughout the whole of the recorded history of this argument, which is I'll remind you, a fraction of the life of the English language.

Yes, the original language is largely the same as modern English with a few extra words here and lexical drifts there.

Finally, "technically" correct refers to a few people deciding there ought to be a rule. "Less" has *always* been used as a counting noun. That, to me, makes it perfectly acceptable.

It absolutely hasn't evolved to include this rule. That rule was instituted by linguists artificially and has been mostly ignored. That is not an evolution.
( Kroney, Tue 12 Jun 2012, 11:51, Reply)

Original english is 'largely' the same as modern english?
So, that quote you used from Alfred the Great up there, then - you understood every word? Balls.
(berk, Tue 12 Jun 2012, 11:57, Reply)

are you seriously telling me
you don't recognise the word "less" in that sentence? Especially since you have the translation below.

But what I meant is that modern usage of words is largely the same as the Old English usage of the Old English forms of the same words and in largely the same structure.
( Kroney, Tue 12 Jun 2012, 11:59, Reply)

Fucking hell and *I* get accused of taking the internet too seriously...

( Fucking hell Jeff I am not a robot, Tue 12 Jun 2012, 11:01, Reply)

I just find this shit interesting.
I enjoy knowing how stuff works.
( Kroney, Tue 12 Jun 2012, 11:03, Reply)

you can argue all you want but you'll never win
had a discussion with mrs Q this morning about how bad for the environment it is for everyone to be driving to work just because it was raining

while she was driving, to work, because it was raining
(Quintno EXPERIMENT RUINED CANCELLED, LEFT 4EVER, Tue 12 Jun 2012, 10:47, Reply)

I think you had a point but you really should have sussed you were on to a loser

(Darth Foxtrot A one-man army dedicated to making fetch happen, Tue 12 Jun 2012, 10:54, Reply)

she was complaining about the traffic
even though we could quite easily walk or get the tube to work
(Quintno EXPERIMENT RUINED CANCELLED, LEFT 4EVER, Tue 12 Jun 2012, 11:06, Reply)