In reply to all really
If I wanted a Right wing Labour to pick up Tory votes, I would vote Tory...
(, Mon 26 Sep 2016, 11:06, Share, Reply)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBPqksG9nbA
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Jahled Three shades of black, Mon 26 Sep 2016, 11:19,
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Elections aren't won on the right or the left
They're won in the centre. May will move the Tories further right, leaving Labour an open goal. But instead of taking that they've just announced their intention to balloon a shot into row Z, because principles or something.
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evil_andy Stick stick stick stick sticky sticky stick stick, Mon 26 Sep 2016, 11:37,
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The centre ground isn't a fixed point
And the rightwards drift over a period of decades as Labour chases the mythical centre isn't going to lead Labour to power any time soon, and allows the Tories to continue to set the political agenda: even the description of Corbyn as "hard left" shows how far rightwards we've allowed mainstream political discourse to be dragged: put his actual beliefs and positions to the electorate in neutral terms and a majority agree with him on most things.
2020 was always, always going to be near impossible for Labour to win (look back at the 2015 candidates for leader - none of them seemed at all capable of giving the impression of a prime minister in waiting - I include Corbyn in that)
The fact is, an opposition that actually opposes can start to change the terms of discourse, and start to define the political landscape. For all the dismissal of Labour under Corbyn as a party of protest, it is about time that Labour did start protesting; when a mainstream political party starts protesting, opposing and offering alternative solutions, discussion broadens, some minds are changed.
I wish that there had been a more charismatic, a more natural leader type, who had stood on a left leaning platform a year ago, but we have Corbyn. And all that's certain now is that however badly one thinks labour will do under him, they will do a lot worse if the party actively works against him. The party have tried to get rid, and I understand why they did so - let's not simply slag off those who genuinely believe getting rid was the way to improve chances of electability - but he withstood the challenge and now there really is no alternative than to support him, if you'd rather he be prime minister than May - and if you would rather May be Prime Minister than Corbyn, then that's fine too, but maybe - respectfully - it's better to do so outside of the Labour Party rather than as a member or supporter of it.
(, Mon 26 Sep 2016, 12:19, Share, Reply)
But he doesn't engage or oppose, and certainly can't divert a government policy
He lives in his own little Marxist world where the enemy is still Thatcher.
I'm reminded of Adam Hill's routine where he says what the Dalai Lama said to him, feeling the nerves as he prepared to go on stage:
"You have a microphone; say something".
That's just it. A confident leader - not just of the party, but of a nation - would take any opportunity to speak and would know what to say. Surprise Corbyn with a camera and a microphone and he just mutters and runs away.
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joefish It's hard for thee to kick against the pricks, Mon 26 Sep 2016, 12:38,
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Agreed with some of that; he's by no means
A natural leader, and it's frustrating as anything that at the time there is a real grassroots appetite to move politics to the left, it's Corbyn on the crest of the wave (doubly frustrating when I read that I'm part of a fanclub, when that's far from the case)
But the point, surely, is that he represents the will of the membership and that in the absence of a credible alternative to Corbyn, from any wing of the party, the best course of action is to try to mitigate his shortfalls and provide support, rather than working against him and highlighting them
(, Mon 26 Sep 2016, 12:52, Share, Reply)
I don't see why. That sounds like the same argument as 'stop talking about brexit now the vote is over'.
None of his failures have gone away, just because he won another leadership election. I don't care much about the fate of the Labour Party; I just want to see competent opposition to the government, and he isn't it. That a self-selecting group of people favour him means very little, really.
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joefish It's hard for thee to kick against the pricks, Mon 26 Sep 2016, 13:54,
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If you want to see competent opposition
Then you need to actively attempt to get it: at the moment, the group of people who want a left leaning labour leader to provide opposition have comprehensively, overwhelmingly won that argument - Corbyn is a side effect of that, not a catalyst, but the cat won't easily go back in the bag.
The problem is that all the people saying "we want a competent opposition" as an argument against Corbyn aren't mobilising to bring it about; if there aren't enough people who strongly want a more "moderate", or "centre" Labour leader who care enough about it join the party, then it's fair enough that that option doesn't win.
The centre needs to stop blaming Corbyn and Labour's membership, and start thinking about how to create and sell a vision.
I'm just getting sick of the stock replies by both sides. It's clearly nonsense to be like "LOL they said Corbyn is unelectable but he won the labour leadership" when any superficial analysis of that argument shows that it's obviously not the same thing at all. But it's also ridiculous to accuse Corbyn/the left of simply reinforcing their own positions in an echo chamber when what has actual;y happened is that the left have currently got a more attractive vision - how else would they have inspired the growth they have inspired? And why can't the centre of the party mobilise more people? And if it's simply apathy on the part of the electorate who just want credible centrist politics, then surely the job of people with ideas and a desire to change things is to change where the centre is?
(, Mon 26 Sep 2016, 14:20, Share, Reply)
They haven't won any argument.
The majority of long term Labour members, likely to be ex-Labour members wanted him gone. Its the majority of his funclub/cult/entriest supporters that simply used an utterly stupid change to the Labour Party leadership rules implemented by Milliband and McCluskey to vote him in. Highly unlikely they'll ever get rid of him now as the lunatics are pretty much behind of the 16 wheeler heading over a massive cliff.
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slartifartfast When all around are losing their heads, duck., Mon 26 Sep 2016, 14:31,
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You can call them a fanclub or entryists all you like...
...but the facts are that when the selection process was widened, it's the left who captured people's imaginations; there aren't 250,000 trots out there.
What that says is that there is no real appetite in the electorate to make the Labour Party remain as a party who suggest slightly less bad versions of Tory policy: I keep seeing people saying "well done, you're condemning the vulnerable to Tory rule", but in a lot of cases, the vulnerable have deserted labour anyway in recent years, and won't be attracted back easily by a centrist Labour Party - there's no clear easy route back to power for any form of the Labour Party.
(, Mon 26 Sep 2016, 15:35, Share, Reply)
Recent additions to the labour membership come from the electorate
And if there were centrists passionate enough about wanting this centre Labour Party, they could also have joined - but they didn't, in enough numbers to take the party in the direction they want to go in.
Which is their lookout; if you want to be able to vote for a specific type of party, help create that party, or help shape a party. At the moment, it's a fact that a centre Labour Party simply does not inspire people, has no vision, and wasn't even able to put forward a credible candidate against Corbyn.
(, Mon 26 Sep 2016, 17:28, Share, Reply)
You seem to be under the impression that
"A member of a set A is also a member of any set B which is a superset of A"
implies that
"A member of B must also be a member of A"
This is patently not the case.
You see, there is another set, C, a subset of B, whose intersection with A is practically the empty set. This set C is vastly bigger than A.
A = recent additions to the labour party membership
B = the electorate
C = people who think Corbyn is a dangerous idealogue
(, Mon 26 Sep 2016, 20:47, Share, Reply)
No, that's not what I'm saying at all
What I am saying is simply that if enough people have joined a political party to change the direction in which it is going, and if a year later the party establishment hasn't been able to counter that with their own vision, inspiring others, then it's hard to see a good reason why this direction, which is perfectly in line with Labour Party ideals over the years, shouldn't be tested at a general election, with the support of the party.
Just as the left of the party sucked it up and leafletted and campaigned under Blair, and through Clause IV
(, Mon 26 Sep 2016, 20:58, Share, Reply)
OK,
but it will be tested at a general election and it'll almost certainly fail.
(, Mon 26 Sep 2016, 21:23, Share, Reply)
Quite possibly. And that'll be the time for different ideas
But Labour failed in the last two general elections and haven't even been able to present a coherent enough vision to convince their own membership that Corbyn isn't the best chance.
This is what the idea of a cult misses; it's not about Corbyn for most (only idiots blindly support Corbyn the man) - it's that the centre/right of the party have comprehensively failed, nd then failed to learn - Corbyn emerged as a candidate as the only possible way for Labour to try something different, against other candidates who already looked exactly like the equivalent of the Tories' wilderness years leaders. Considering how comprehensively the left of the party have won the leadership, and increased membership (and for all the accusations, it's not "entryism"; there aren't 250k trots) the only productive thing to do if one would prefer Corbyn to be prime minister to May, is to support Corbyn up to 2020, and do what we can.
(, Mon 26 Sep 2016, 21:56, Share, Reply)
Keep buggering on I suppose...
...probably irrelevant since Trump will have ruined everything by then.
(, Mon 26 Sep 2016, 23:05, Share, Reply)
I agree with most of what he says.
I dont believe he's a raging anti-semite or a terrorist or anti-British or any of that guff.
For me he fucked it all up with Brexit. That's what triggered the coup against him - he could have won that referendum if he'd pulled his finger out. The whole country pushed off a cliff and Labour is 7 out of 10 against the thick racists
(, Mon 26 Sep 2016, 12:47, Share, Reply)
He may not be but some of his closest mates absolutely are.
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slartifartfast When all around are losing their heads, duck., Mon 26 Sep 2016, 14:33,
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