I don't want to sound negative but, they kind of had it coming.
If you're going to listen to a god botherer and not take medication YOU NEED TO SURVIVE, then this will happen. That's the problem with modern religion; it's not needed, it just hinders our progress as a species.
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Bourbon Fox Bourbon is a moron, Tue 18 Oct 2011, 8:40,
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Well, I think there's still plenty of space for a belief in a higher consciousness, whichever form that might take for each,
the problem comes with this attitude that science and religious belief are somehow enemies and if you believe in one then you have to stop involving with the other to be taken seriously.
It ain't necessarily so, I think you can find a happy middle ground without topping yourself over it.
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..wil, Tue 18 Oct 2011, 8:54,
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True true. I know a fair amount of religious people who aren't ignorant, "you have to believe this" types.
Sure, if someone finds joy in taking part in a religion, that's cool, as long as they don't take it too far and do stuff like this.
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Bourbon Fox Bourbon is a moron, Tue 18 Oct 2011, 8:58,
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This^ and so long as they don't try to shove that crap down my throat.
I do have a problem with the hardcore Christians' growing attempts to influence our government though.
The likes of Nadine Dorries (covertly trying to ban abortion) and that fella on the BBC Sunday morning news/chat thing who wants to ban sex education 'cos he hates gays (but wouldn't say it like that) and hide behind pressure group names like 'Centre for Family Values' can fuck right off.
(, Tue 18 Oct 2011, 10:06, Share, Reply)
In order to be fair you should hate everyone who attempts to influence government then
like lobbyists, pressure groups, all the other religions, voters...
(, Tue 18 Oct 2011, 10:22, Share, Reply)
Doesn't that depend tho
on how 'reasonable' their issues are?
Like CAN they be reasoned? Not just 'My God says these people should die!' and suchlike.
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..wil, Tue 18 Oct 2011, 10:28,
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Its interesting
But I tend to feel that an awful lot of these issues are based on convictions at least as flimsy or as self interested. And you look at the influence that are much more malevolent like oil companies, or Rupert Murdoch, or BAE systems, or foreign treaties, and I think you'll realize that until these dragons are slayed the lunatic fringe of the Religious community are nothing more than a distraction and any time spent knocking them is "low hanging fruit" at best, and serving the interests of the real bastards in the world at worst.
(, Tue 18 Oct 2011, 10:50, Share, Reply)
No, not at all.
As WiL implied; that's putting religions on a parr with logical, critically-reasoned arguments from serious pressure-groups/other political groups &c.
Which they're clearly not.
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Tab Hunter Make this useless process end and so, begin again, Tue 18 Oct 2011, 10:38,
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You have a lot of faith
"Logical, Critically reasoned argument" is a God I just can't take seriously.
"Self interested Bastards who have the world just the way they like it and want to distract the population with trivia and the illusion of rationality while they pull the strings of power" is what rules the world.
(, Tue 18 Oct 2011, 10:59, Share, Reply)
Oh you.
It's an interesting & valid point. However, I don't think the fact that there are self-serving, greedy, money-grabbing bastards attempting to manipulate policy negates the evil influence of religion at all. Which, typing it, is too obvious to state.
In summary, I agree with you, but think religion's malignant influence is more than a distraction...
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Tab Hunter Make this useless process end and so, begin again, Tue 18 Oct 2011, 11:33,
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I agree with this,
I have no problem at all with religious belief being about and followed and respected, however when it then decides it can enforce itself as law on everyone in the country/world and dictate what people can and can't do with their own lives and bodies, no, that is not right, everyone has their own beliefs, they shouldn't have to be forced into 'believing' in someone else's, in the modern age particularly when everyone has the sum of all human knowledge, good and bad, at their fingertips, I think folks should be allowed to make their own minds up.
As a general rule if your life is not hurting anyone else's then that's your choice and yours alone, I guess you could argue they made their own choice and paid the consequences, but knowing as I do of a good mate of mine who felt pressured into hiding his gayness all his life and at 46 is now currently being blackmailed into 'staying straight' by his very christian wife and minister, otherwise they will inform all his family of his shameful dirty gay thoughts and destroy everything he's ever worked and paid for all his life, AND he is treated like scum in his own house and is no longer allowed to touch his own son, well, lets say I know how 'encouraging' some of these churches can be...
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..wil, Tue 18 Oct 2011, 10:26,
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There's a fair number of other entities out there that are considerably more effective at influencing your thought and behaviour
And most of them are considerably more effective at it than "Religion". You think of the behavior modification that Apple performs on its users, or the manipulative tactics of advertisers. You have the world of political spin, or of health and safety. The various agendas pushed through our education system.
Seems like "Religion" is an easy target because it inherently irrational, but also probably the least worthy of your ire if you are hoping that your anger is going to make the world a place where less manipulation of people goes on.
(, Tue 18 Oct 2011, 10:34, Share, Reply)
If someone influences my behaviour through rational argument and makes me see they're point, great, all power to them for getting the issue out there and making their point well,
if someone tells me I can no longer do something that harms no one because their god says it's wrong and now I must undergo checks by their god police to make sure I'm not committing such moral sins, not so much.
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..wil, Tue 18 Oct 2011, 10:40,
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Except
I don't recall advertisers (even apple) promising everlasting life and claiming to know the one and only "truth". Apple users may be smug bastards but I've yet to experience one of them claiming that because of their product the user is going to spend eternity in a land of ambrosia and that users of other platforms are damned
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TownsendsPublisher is all gravy baby, Tue 18 Oct 2011, 10:40,
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I have however
read a fair few PC users comments that weren't a million miles off that!
Let's face it folks buy stuff 'cos they want to own it, whatever their reasons, whether they just like it, want something they think will work well for purpose, or think women will want to have their babies, it's still their personal choice, so I find it very odd when folks get up in arms about it when someone else liked and bought something they would not.
But to get back to point, yeh, I dont think Apple ever claimed it could cure cancer! ;)
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..wil, Tue 18 Oct 2011, 10:47,
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I'm trying to recall the very interesting documentary
That posited that this is exactly what both advertisers and politicians do.
The idea was that they substitute the symbols of religion because they are deep triggers in the human psyche: So our ever-lasting life, for example, is now the dream of a happy retirement. And this is far more of a crock, because most people work their life and health away making their employers rich and are too sick/dead to really enjoy their retirement when it comes.
Look at the symbology in most advertising, and you will see some sort of valhalla promised as a result of buying into their product. "Get a loan" they say, and show you a picture of heaven on the beach, with a beautiful spouse and perfect children and a flash car.
Instead of the 10 commandments we have the ethos of Career, Family, Friends. And we as a people seem to have bought into the false notion that these will bring us everlasting happiness when in fact they are the three biggest causes of misery in the lives of most of the people I know. Not because of something inherent in them, but because of the unrealistic expectation we have been taught to place on them.
(, Tue 18 Oct 2011, 11:08, Share, Reply)
I was thinking of this one, although its not the one where this point was made
but its a very interesting and humourously made documentary about media tactics to control the population.
www.channel4.com/programmes/starsuckers
EDIT: nuts, not available any more on 4OD. Maybe youtube. worth a hunt around if its something that interests you. I liked it because its also a giggle while making a serious point.
(, Tue 18 Oct 2011, 11:14, Share, Reply)
Yes, totally and they are equally (or more) worthy of our contempt.
Basically I have no problem with what religious people believe in their own private lives, but when someone is motivated to write laws or tell me how I should live *my* life by a fictional Paternal Sky-Master then I get angry.
The Cult of Apple's reaction to Jobs's death (sad I know, I'm not trying to detract from this) was fascinating and weird. All these people were like "OH NOES OUR MESSIAH IS DED, HE WAS THE BESTEST MAN EVAR" and (no joke) I saw someone say "nobody has done more to change our world and technology" on twitter and it took all of my willpower to restrain myself from replying with "KNOWLEDGE FAIL: See Nikola Tesla or Henry Ford, iBitch!".
Still, at least Jobs really existed.
(, Tue 18 Oct 2011, 10:51, Share, Reply)
Given the religious context of this thread...
...I read that as "The Cult of Apple's reaction to Job's death".
Amazing how context alters your perception, isn't it?
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TheAlmightyBeev, Tue 18 Oct 2011, 11:20,
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