I don't understand OCD
I know everyone's meant to have it a little bit, and I know I do (lightswitches must click into place) but when it becomes a hinderance - locking and unlocking the door several times, handwashing disorders, money having to face the right way etc - doesn't it just become ... too much of a hassle to bother with?

A cynic could be forgiven for perhaps thinking it's some sort of attention-seeking or masterbatory/self-agrandising behaviour.
( Je suis un vagabond is an unfunny, up your own arse middle class knob, Fri 2 Jul 2010, 10:50, 61 replies)

Personally, I find my money-arranging compulsion..
is useful. My coworkers' drawers are always complete out of order, ones in the twenties slots, twenties in the hundreds slots, bills folded in half underneath bills not folded in half, etc. Takes them a good five or ten minutes longer than myself to count their money when it comes time, and I never have to search for a bill to make change.
(Trial.TM, Fri 2 Jul 2010, 10:58, closed)

Yes - being tidy I can understand - it's generally less hassle to be tidy than not - it's the OCD stuff that I don't get.
Maybe it's just that I'm incredibly lazy.
( Je suis un vagabond is an unfunny, up your own arse middle class knob, Fri 2 Jul 2010, 11:04, closed)

Its almost like they have some kind of mental disorder...

(Spleep Shit, or get off the internet., Fri 2 Jul 2010, 11:18, closed)

Well that's exactly it - I don't think they do.

( Je suis un vagabond is an unfunny, up your own arse middle class knob, Fri 2 Jul 2010, 11:24, closed)

there's definitely a line
between fussy and obsessive.

Some people simply can't be around things that have absolutely no effect on their lives.

You've got £7.49 in loose change in your pocket. Does it make any difference to you whether it is sorted in size of coin? Course not. But an OCD person simply can't operate until they are where they 'need' to be.

And there's a lot of food ones. Can't have meat touching potatoes, have to throw it all away if egg yolk bursts before you've finished your peas?

It makes huge differences to their lives. They waste vast amounts of time, at the expense of other opportunities (go back 3 times to check your door? How far would you have got etc). They injure themselves (try washing your hands 80 times a day, using a scrubbing brush).

It is some kind of mental illness, in it's extreme forms.
( Not Pineapple anymore, Fri 2 Jul 2010, 11:31, closed)

Oh I see...
Why don't you think that mental disorders don't exist?
(robbersdog, Fri 2 Jul 2010, 11:32, closed)

I don't.
I just don't think OCD necessarily does.
( Je suis un vagabond is an unfunny, up your own arse middle class knob, Fri 2 Jul 2010, 11:34, closed)

Ok,
So why do you think OCD is different to other mental disorders then?
(robbersdog, Fri 2 Jul 2010, 12:16, closed)

Well, because it's clearly deliberate and generally unnecessary.
As opposed to spontaneous and uncontrolled.
( Je suis un vagabond is an unfunny, up your own arse middle class knob, Fri 2 Jul 2010, 12:19, closed)

It really isn't deliberate.

(Spleep Shit, or get off the internet., Fri 2 Jul 2010, 12:32, closed)

Then why does one do it if it's not deliberate?
As I say - I'm not an expert on the subject, but I can't help thinking that if it's annoying, frustrating or debilitating then, er ... don't do it.
( Je suis un vagabond is an unfunny, up your own arse middle class knob, Fri 2 Jul 2010, 12:42, closed)

Again...
A fundamental failure to understand OCD (wikipedia is your friend). The *obsessions* themselves are debilitating. The *compulsions* are a reaction to the obsessions and are an attempt to eliminate or reduce the anxiety caused by them. The obsessions *are spontaneous and uncontrollable* which means that the compulsions are necessary.
(flimflam_machine, Fri 2 Jul 2010, 12:52, closed)

As I said below - it seems the thoughts/obsessions as the engine
Need to be come to terms with and accepted.

Locking the back door 17 times is not going to make it safer, or lucky, or help you pass your exam.
( Je suis un vagabond is an unfunny, up your own arse middle class knob, Fri 2 Jul 2010, 13:00, closed)

It is deliberate.
It's done in response to nagging anxiety that the sufferer cannot ignore without suffering extreme mental distress.
(Falstaff's Spiritual Successor, Fri 2 Jul 2010, 12:49, closed)

He's completely right you know.
It's the same with most 'nyoo-ro-logikull cun-di-shuns', so-called.
I personally know this to be true - I tell everyone I have epilepsy, but really I just throw fits so people look at me.
(Falstaff's Spiritual Successor, Fri 2 Jul 2010, 11:44, closed)

I can't claim to be an expert on the subject, but I didn't realise OCD was neurological.
I thought it was psychological.
( Je suis un vagabond is an unfunny, up your own arse middle class knob, Fri 2 Jul 2010, 11:47, closed)

Posttraumatic stress disorder is "only" psychological
would you say a soldier suffering from it was just over-reacting to loud noises? I've known a couple of guys who basically can't stop repeting the same phrases and performing the same little actions and it drove them spare. Do ypou understand the "cumpulsion" part of OCD? Its not something people do by choice.
(Spleep Shit, or get off the internet., Fri 2 Jul 2010, 12:31, closed)

I hardly think the two are comparable.
Locking the back door 17 times and then washing one's hands twice with water and twice to rinse for obsessive fear of catching a cold is significantly different from spending a whole year in an environment where being shelled and sniped at by anyone in the vicinity and seeing men, women and children be quite literally blown limb from limb.
( Je suis un vagabond is an unfunny, up your own arse middle class knob, Fri 2 Jul 2010, 12:41, closed)

In a similar vein,
thinking you're 'fat' and 'revolting' and starving yourself because of it, just because you want to be skinny, is trivial in comparison to the actual suffering experienced by someone who was abused as a child. They're the ones with something real to worry about, while the anorexic should just shut up and eat more.

Don't belittle anyone's suffering. Not understanding it is one thing; making it out to be trivial because there's worse things is quite another.
(Falstaff's Spiritual Successor, Fri 2 Jul 2010, 12:57, closed)

Fair enough
But I do kind of feel that way about anorexia too - likewise I believe fatness can be cured through cake eating-avoidance.
( Je suis un vagabond is an unfunny, up your own arse middle class knob, Fri 2 Jul 2010, 13:09, closed)

It seems you're forgetting two things about the mind:
1. Our minds notice (or even make up) patterns very easily.
2. The mind is generally quite lazy.

When some people experience fear/anxiety for no real reason, they want to return to feeling comfortable as quickly as possible (so they won't think logically like you have, because it takes too much time).
So their mind will identify patterns of behaviour that it believes 'led' them to this fear/anxiety, no matter how arbitrary.
(tarbin tarbis, tarbit, tarbamus, tarbimus, tarbant, Fri 2 Jul 2010, 13:42, closed)

This
would appear to be the most acceptable answer I've been given so far.

Thank you.
( Je suis un vagabond is an unfunny, up your own arse middle class knob, Fri 2 Jul 2010, 13:45, closed)

No probs fella
Glad I could shed some light!
(tarbin tarbis, tarbit, tarbamus, tarbimus, tarbant, Fri 2 Jul 2010, 19:24, closed)

Post traumaticv stress disorder isn't
spending a year being shelled.

It's the time after afterwards, where you still think you're being shelled when someone pops a crisp packet.

They're both reactions to what are really non existant stimuli.

You're comparing apples and oranges.
( Not Pineapple anymore, Fri 2 Jul 2010, 13:55, closed)

Yes, OK - I accept that.
But I still think they're not really comparable - while I accept that OCD may be brought on by stressful situations, it's the irrationality of continuing with it when it becomes annoying or debilitating that I don't understand.
( Je suis un vagabond is an unfunny, up your own arse middle class knob, Fri 2 Jul 2010, 13:58, closed)

We have a bit of an advantage in the UK
Assuming you're in the US . .?

Our notes are all different colours and sizes, so they're much easier to work with when they're mixed up.

US Dollars all look pretty much the same. Having those properly sorted would be a big time saver even if you're not OCD.
( Not Pineapple anymore, Fri 2 Jul 2010, 11:25, closed)

But noone except perhaps David Beckham so much money they have to trawl through masses of notes to get to the one they want.
The most I ever carry is the Holy Trinity, and even then that's only if I'm going out.
( Je suis un vagabond is an unfunny, up your own arse middle class knob, Fri 2 Jul 2010, 11:33, closed)

Yea, US..
Wish we had the damned common sense to do things like that. But, no - god forbid we take lessons from other countries. We're Americans, damnit, and we're patriotic, and we won't let any commies tell us how to live, so our money stays uniform.
(Trial.TM, Sun 4 Jul 2010, 4:45, closed)

Too much of a hassle for what?
Compulsions (the actions e.g., counting things, avoiding cracks in pavements, washing hands) are performed in order to reduce or eliminate obsession (unwanted intrusive thoughts e.g., vision of a loved one dying, being attacked by a bear, fear of contamination). People with OCD generally know that the scope of their actions goes far beyond that which is actually needed to avoid the obsessiong actually happening, but nevertheless feel that they have to carry them out.

If you could explain what you mean by "too much of a hassle to bother with?" it might help. Repeatedly leaning the engine bay of my car is a hassle that I don't want to cope with, but I'd do it if it eliminated my (albeit irrational) fear that my car will burst into flames on the motorway.
(flimflam_machine, Fri 2 Jul 2010, 12:19, closed)

Too much of a hassle - just ... too much of a hassle.
I agree that it's bourne out of fear. I think it's more a case of self-worth and councelling than some sort of illness.
( Je suis un vagabond is an unfunny, up your own arse middle class knob, Fri 2 Jul 2010, 12:22, closed)

I agree...
...you don't understand OCD.

What I think you're missing is that the compulsions are response to unwanted thoughts that most people don't experience (either in terms of content, severity or frequency). Locking your door ten times is a hassle if you have no reason to do it, but people with OCD do have a reason to do it (the obsessions). If locking their door ten times eliminates their crippling anxiety caused by fear of burglars then *it is worth the hassle.*
(flimflam_machine, Fri 2 Jul 2010, 12:41, closed)

Ah, OK - so it's the unwanted thoughts that are the cause.
Which would seem to be a case of coming to terms with and accepting such.

Or is it more akin to schitzophrenia?
( Je suis un vagabond is an unfunny, up your own arse middle class knob, Fri 2 Jul 2010, 12:57, closed)

Not really
From wikipedia "the person must realize that his/her obsessions or compulsions are unreasonable or excessive, which is why people with OCD are not considered to be detached from reality or psychotic." Schizophrenia is a psychosis so there is an obvious distinction there.

It could be compared to Tourette's Syndrome in which the person sometimes feels an uncontrollable tension which is released by the tic.
(flimflam_machine, Fri 2 Jul 2010, 13:00, closed)

So if they know it's unreasonable or excessive
Why do they do it?
( Je suis un vagabond is an unfunny, up your own arse middle class knob, Fri 2 Jul 2010, 13:15, closed)

Go read the wikipedia page
Because it relieves the anxiety caused by the obsession (which they cannot control).

Cognitive behavioural therapy may provide better ways of dealing with the obsession. Which is why it's possibly the most successful treatment, but that's quite a bit more complex than just "coming to terms and accepting" them.
(flimflam_machine, Fri 2 Jul 2010, 13:29, closed)

More complex it may be, but I wasn't going write a paper on it.
Good to see I'm pretty well right, though. The obsession is uncontrollable, which seems more akin to schitzophrenia, and the treatment is a wordy version of "accept and get over it".
( Je suis un vagabond is an unfunny, up your own arse middle class knob, Fri 2 Jul 2010, 13:41, closed)

I don't know why you think that you're "pretty well right".
Given that you've displayed complete misunderstanding of what OCD is, I don't know why you feel that your beliefs about schizophrenia are any more accurate. Schizophrenia is characterised by "a disintegration of the process of thinking, of contact with reality, and of emotional responsiveness. It most commonly manifests as auditory hallucinations, paranoid or bizarre delusions" [Wikipedia]

Obsessions are *thoughts*, which are very different from delusions or hallucinations. I, for example, am currently thinking about a pink unicorm rampaging through my house. But, since I don't actually believe that it exists, I am not delusional and, since I don't actually perceive it, I am not hallucinating. People with OCD are, like me, not losing contact with reality because they know that these are just thoughts and they know that the compulsions are unreasonable or excessive with relation to the obsession.

I also think that you're over-simplifying CBT as a "wordy version of "accept and get over it"." CBT aims to give patients a set of cognitive and behavioural tools (actions, systems etc.) with which to deal with the obsessions as they arise.
(flimflam_machine, Fri 2 Jul 2010, 14:45, closed)

OK - thanks for the detailed response.
So - if OCD sufferers know that they're just thoughts, and that the compulsions are unreasonable or excessive with relation to the obsession, then - back to the original question - why do they bother doing them?

As for CBT - as I said - it's a wordy version of accept and get over it. Accepting and getting over it is developing a set of cognitive and behavioural tools with which to deal with the obsessions as they arise.

An example could be for the recently dumped: if you're tempted to 'phone the ex and beg them to have you back, go for a run. Thats not CBT, or Personal Psychological Management and Contructive Behavioural Therapy, or DFG, or the Vagabond method, it's called being sensible about it. It's accepting it and getting over it.
( Je suis un vagabond is an unfunny, up your own arse middle class knob, Fri 2 Jul 2010, 14:55, closed)

As per tarbin's response
Beacuse it reduces anxiety. I don't see why this is so difficult for you to grasp. As tarbin pointed out the brain notices or makes up patterns of behaviour which reduce the anxiety caused by the obsessions (which cannot be controlled). Since the person's primary aim is to not feel anxious it does not make any difference that there is no logical link between the compulsion and the obsession. As long as the compulsion reduces the anxiety, they will perform it.

Your description of CBT is about the least useful "stiff upper lip" style dismissal of mental illness and its treatment that I've ever seen. It's pretty clear that not everyone possesses your remarkable reserves of sense and judgement. Your example is also wide of the mark since being dumped is a one-off event (...per girlfriend ...hopefully) whereas obsessions occur repeatedly. Even if you can accept that they are merely thoughts you're still left with the question of why am I constantly having these thoughts about, for example, my family being killed?
(flimflam_machine, Fri 2 Jul 2010, 15:34, closed)

No - I really do apologise - I'm still not getting it.
If the OCDist realises that the compulsion are irrational/over the top, then I still don't understand why they do them, as they're irrational.

As a result of them realising they're irrational, then they accept that they will have no bearing on the obsession at all - eg below - that if the curtains are the wrong way up then one's parents will not die, as thats an irrational thing to think, so you don't need to worry about whether or not the curtains are upside down, and if you do, then remind yourself that it has no bearing on whether or not your parents will die.
( Je suis un vagabond is an unfunny, up your own arse middle class knob, Mon 5 Jul 2010, 9:17, closed)

People aren't rational.
This is paraphrasing what tarbin said. Your failure to get OCD appears to be based on your not believing a straightforward fact i.e., that acting out the compulsion reduces the anxiety caused by the obsession. Your refusal to accept this appears to be based on the erroneous belief that people think and act rationally. This is simply not true and I suggest that you reread and digest tarbin's reply to you a bit more thoroughly.
(flimflam_machine, Mon 5 Jul 2010, 10:34, closed)

No
Tarbin just pointed out we look for patterns and are quite lazy.

People are rational. I accept we are all prone to have moments of irrationality - girls and women especially so when in my vicinity - but that does not excuse us all naturally striving towards rationality.

I still don't understand why you would do something debilitating or personally annoying to you in full knowledge that to do so is irrational.
( Je suis un vagabond is an unfunny, up your own arse middle class knob, Mon 5 Jul 2010, 10:44, closed)

Reread it again
There is a huge amount of evidence that people are not rational (temporal discounting off the top of my head). The brain/mind does a huge amount of work that you are not aware of and the conscious rational part of you is just a very thin veneer over that. If you reread tarbin's post as I suggested post you'll notice that he said that "*our minds* notice (or even make up) patterns very easily." and "The *mind* is generally quite lazy." Note "mind" not, as you said, "we".

There is a process at work here of which the conscious self is unaware. The brain/mind notices or makes up a link between your curtains' orientation and your parents wellbeing without your conscious self having any say at all. Consciously you realise that there is no link and that straightening your curtains will not save your parents but you consciously notice that straightening you curtains reduces the anxiety you feel and so makes you feel better. Since your aim is not to feel anxious is makes sense, consciously and rationally, to perform the action that reduces your anxiety, even if the action itself is illogical.
(flimflam_machine, Mon 5 Jul 2010, 11:13, closed)

This is what I have issue with.
I don't accept that people in general are irrational.

Indeed - I'd go so far as to say that if something you consciously do that you know is irrational is annoying you, then stop doing it.
( Je suis un vagabond is an unfunny, up your own arse middle class knob, Mon 5 Jul 2010, 11:18, closed)

Quite bored now
You are simply wrong about that. You don't have conscious access to the vast majority of what your brain does and you might qualify much of it as 'irrational'. Your conscious self has much less control over you than you think.

As has been pointed out repeatedly, it's the *obsessions* that annoy (distress) you and the compulsions *reduce* that distress. To reduce distress *is rational*. If you actually want to understand this (and aren't just trolling) go and do some reading. Otherwise, carry on.
(flimflam_machine, Mon 5 Jul 2010, 11:33, closed)

Yes I understand that.
What I don't get is to take the compulsions to the level that they're annoying or debilitating - ie - stressful.

As for rationality - if that is the case, and we're all irrational, then what of reason, laws, mathematics, science? All just a load of mumbo-jumbo made up by irrational people?

It would be a very good argument for religion, this - the universe is chaos, life is meaningless and ultimately futile - believe in god and this system of understanding the world.

Or - y'know - keep closing and opening your living room door and saying "Fish" 20 times before going to the toilet, because otherwise your mother will explode.
( Je suis un vagabond is an unfunny, up your own arse middle class knob, Mon 5 Jul 2010, 11:54, closed)

Look down there

(flimflam_machine, Mon 5 Jul 2010, 14:30, closed)

You still keep going off on the wrong tangent.
You're not describing OCD behaviour there. You're just making up some nutty example of strange behaviour. OCD people don't imagine their mothers are going to explode.

OCD people don't fear any consequences of failing to do something. The complusive door checker isn't thinking of what will happen if he forgets to lock the door. He's just simply compelled to check the door.

Their actions are exactly the same as the things we all do, all the time, but repeated and/or exagerated. We all check our doors and wash our hands. None of us repeatedly slam doors and worry about our mothers exploding.

You're either attention-whoring or trolling here.
( Not Pineapple anymore, Mon 5 Jul 2010, 15:27, closed)

Ah - perhaps I was confused by Dissolved Mynci, who asked
"what's your take on having to have the curtains the right way or your parents will die? if drawers aren't shut in the right order then the house will burn down?"

I figured they were examples of OCD sufferers being in fear of consequences.

But you're right - I'm trolling and attention-whoring, it's nothing to do with discussion or exploring my original point - it's based entirely on my personally being a wanker.
( Je suis un vagabond is an unfunny, up your own arse middle class knob, Mon 5 Jul 2010, 16:29, closed)

Aw,
come on, you're a big boy.

It's obvious you're doing a bit of trolling, but having managed to hook one or two of us, it's bad form to flounce off like that. I'm not calling you a wanker, so you don't need to get offended.

(edit) I didn't read the other post. What you said makes more sense. I don't think that's a valid example of OCD though.
( Not Pineapple anymore, Mon 5 Jul 2010, 17:34, closed)

Thank you.
You're more than welcome.
( Je suis un vagabond is an unfunny, up your own arse middle class knob, Mon 5 Jul 2010, 19:00, closed)

Ok, I'm biting. I know I shouldn't feed trolls, but here goes...
"If the OCDist realises that the compulsion are irrational/over the top, then I still don't understand why they do them, as they're irrational."

The person with OCD will realise that to a normal person their behaviour is over the top and not normal.

Take the example of a person locking the door and having to check twenty times in case they've not done it right. They're scared of the consequences if they get it wrong. Now, a normal person will check and when they do a little switch switches in their head and they stop worrying and get on with their lives. The person with OCD has a faulty switch that doesn't switch. They keep worrying, and the worry can be so strong it's completely debilitating. Just ignoring simply isn't an option.

If a normal person wasn't sure if they'd locked the door they'd worry. I know that for me it would be a distracting thought throughout the day. You wouldn't think it at all strange if that person went back to check to reassure themselves that the door was locked. But if we follow your logic they should just lock it right the first time and then learn to deal with the worry. Clearly, since people aren't right all the time, this worry mechanism has a rightful place in our heads. There's a good reason why we double check some things.

For the OCD sufferer it's the worry mechanism that doesn't work, or at least the mental switch that stops the worry. Just ignoring the worry doesn't make it go away, it makes it worse. The person knows they shouldn't worry, but that doesn't stop them worrying, so they do the thing that does stop them worrying.

Why do you not want to accept that some people find it harder to just stop doing these things than you do? Why is this such a problem for you?
(robbersdog, Mon 5 Jul 2010, 23:53, closed)

Starting with name-calling doesn't do your position much good in the PR/taking it seriously stakes.
I don't have a problem. I just don't understand why someone would evince a behaviour that they themselves found annoying or debilitating. To me it seems foolish.
( Je suis un vagabond is an unfunny, up your own arse middle class knob, Tue 6 Jul 2010, 9:57, closed)

to most of
us it seems foolish. If it didn't, there wouldn't be anything to discuss.

But to say foolish behaviour shouldn't exist on the grounds it's foolish is a bit, er, foolish.

If you could stop people doing stupid things just by pointing out they're stupid, you'd be solving a lot of problems. Tell a herion addict, or even a smoker that he's being an idiot. See if that helps.

I think you made your point about 20 posts ago.
( Not Pineapple anymore, Tue 6 Jul 2010, 12:25, closed)

Autistics, tourettes, stutterers - all attention seeking fakes
your first sentence summed it up: "I don't understand OCD"
( cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Fri 2 Jul 2010, 13:37, closed)

Not really - that's a bit disingenuous.
See my discussion with Flimflam Machine above. I'm in the right ball-park.
( Je suis un vagabond is an unfunny, up your own arse middle class knob, Fri 2 Jul 2010, 13:44, closed)

I find your lack of empathy disturbing.
My ex had crippling OCD. You say you dont understand ordering money etc, what's your take on having to have the curtains the right way or your parents will die? if drawers aren't shut in the right order then the house will burn down?

it is a mental disorder - as someone who helped someone through 2 years of therapy over OCD I feel obliged to say open your eyes a bit and stop being a fanny.
(DissolvedMynci, Mon 5 Jul 2010, 0:35, closed)

Did your ex/do you realise that if your curtains aren't the right way 'round, then it won't affect your parents in any way shape or form
and that the order in which drawers are closed bears no relation to the flammability of the house?
( Je suis un vagabond is an unfunny, up your own arse middle class knob, Mon 5 Jul 2010, 9:13, closed)

We're really not rational you know...
The compulsions probably don't start off as debilitating but become so when they need to be done more frequently to provide relief from the anxiety caused by the obsession. Once they've become so frequent as to become distressing themselves the patient has the option of stopping them (as per your suggestion) and becoming crippled by anxiety or getting treatment (which you seem to think is wimpy).

Reason, laws, mathematics, science are all systems that we have collectively developed to counteract the problems caused by humans individually being irrational. Bear in mind we are talking about the minds of individuals here, and not even the conscious parts of those minds at that. If you want examples of irrationality then how about superstition, staying with a partner despite the fact that you know they're bad for you, buying a lottery ticket etc. etc. etc. These are all examples where you consciously know you should do thing A, but do thing B instead because it makes you feel better (if only temporarily).
(flimflam_machine, Mon 5 Jul 2010, 14:56, closed)

What about someone who is neither superstitious, religious, and likes being their partner?
Are they allowed to be called rational?
( Je suis un vagabond is an unfunny, up your own arse middle class knob, Mon 5 Jul 2010, 16:39, closed)

Having reread this discussion...
I think it's best to approach it using your logic and simply to say that I don't understand why you don't understand OCD. My guess is that you either suffer from a remarkable lack of empathy or you have missed the point that in a mental illness the sufferer's brain works in a different way from the majority of the population. Other than those guesses I'm a bit lost since your response when everything seems to have been explained has just remained "I don't get it."
(flimflam_machine, Tue 6 Jul 2010, 18:06, closed)