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This is a question Where Did It All Go Wrong?

Woocfot asks: Tell us all about that turning point in your life when it started going downhill. Yeah, that drunken conversation with my dad when he suggested I become a civil servant. Dammit, I could have been an astronaut

(, Thu 28 Feb 2013, 11:32)
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Tough question.
Far easier to explain where it all went right...

It all started in mid-2008, I'd recently signed on a house with a 25yr mortgage that tracked 0.5% below the base-rate for the first five years. I was warned against such a product by my financial adviser - as I was told it was far more prudent to fix my rate and therefore know exactly each month how much I was paying. I chose to gamble.

Within a year, the base rate had dropped to 0.5% - meaning my mortgage rate was effectively 0% and £0 per month! Unlike more recent mortgages, there was no clause with a min-base rate, so I was suddenly £1,400 a month better off.

I used my extra income to take out a second mortgage on a buy-to-let property, the rent covered the mortgage and chucked out £800 profit a month, I used this to then take out a third mortgage on another buy-to-let property.

Fast forward four years and I now own three properties, one to live in and two that provide over 10% yield on their purchase prices. One is on the market for a £100,000 profit, which when sold will allow me to place £50,000 down on two further properties.

Buy next year I'll have five properties and a very healthy income on top of my current salary. If I play the game right, I expect to own 10 properties by 2018 - with retirement looking very likely by 2020!

If the current trend of property price increases follows year-on-year for the next seven years, I'll have cleared close to £1m in profit. And if rental rates also continue to rise at the same level year-on-year, my income from my portfolio will hit over £240k per annum. Even after tax, that's still a very healthy wage - all controlled via a laptop and a good network of repairmen, plumbers & cleaners etc.

I fucking love capitalism.
(, Thu 28 Feb 2013, 15:20, 93 replies)
honda accord

(, Thu 28 Feb 2013, 15:22, closed)
Nah.
I'm thinking of a Cayenne Hybrid, all of the power, none of the emissions.
(, Thu 28 Feb 2013, 15:23, closed)


(, Thu 28 Feb 2013, 15:29, closed)
Tsk. Old skool smug doesn't cut it any more.


Nowadays it's all about the Laurie.
(, Thu 28 Feb 2013, 19:44, closed)
Nice, but not enough croissants

(, Fri 1 Mar 2013, 14:50, closed)
that is all of the motherfucking suave

(, Fri 1 Mar 2013, 16:40, closed)
He's the motherfucking S.U.A.V.E.

(, Fri 1 Mar 2013, 16:55, closed)
Did a similar thing myself
But back in the late 80's just before the not-so-well thought out change to double tax relief on mortgages.

Interest rates were high then, so I just knuckled down, paid off my mortgage within a few years and did pretty much the same as you.

Tax is a bugger though. If only I'd known Jimmy Carr's accountant...
(, Thu 28 Feb 2013, 15:39, closed)
Indeed.
Have finally finished the not uncomplicated task of placing all the properties into a limited company. Rentals go in as revenue, then I can pull a dividend, means no tax at source and utilises the very low rates of corporation tax as opposed to income tax.

Then my 'salary' is only hit by capital gains tax...way below current rates of income tax. Saves at least 10-15% per year.
(, Thu 28 Feb 2013, 15:45, closed)
Except that they're cracking down on IR35 loopholes and cheap mortgages for limited companies - particularly for buy-to-let - simply don't exist.
And if you have an existing salary then your dividends will be taxed at your highest tax rate. Unless you pay everything into the PCL and take a minimal salary in which case you wouldn't be able to afford the mortgage on your home when the 5 year term ends. But ... again ... I don't want to cry Honda Accord.
(, Thu 28 Feb 2013, 19:04, closed)
I fucking love capitalism too
as, due to its cyclical nature, you'll hopefully die penniless, alone and unmourned.
(, Thu 28 Feb 2013, 15:42, closed)
Or in prison after they discover all the hidden cameras he's installed in his tenants bathrooms

(, Thu 28 Feb 2013, 23:06, closed)
You should have taken out Massive Tosser insurance - you'd be due a huge payout now,
which you could use to get a buy-to-let mortgage or something.
(, Thu 28 Feb 2013, 15:58, closed)
also
DING DONG MONTILY ON HIGH, IN HEAVEN PATELS ARE RING-ING.
(, Thu 28 Feb 2013, 15:59, closed)
You forgot your other oh-so-hilarious serial quip.
Semen Patel.

Man, you are too much.
(, Thu 28 Feb 2013, 16:34, closed)
SP

(, Thu 28 Feb 2013, 18:59, closed)
Check it right
I once sold a shirt on eBay for a fiver more than I paid for it. I'd worn the fucker too, dunno what this cunt is getting all smug about.
(, Thu 28 Feb 2013, 16:04, closed)
I sold my 1990 Chelsea away shirt (which I bought off of Bald Alan on Kendal market for £3)
for £70 to some eBay ponce before the 2007-2008 Champions League semi-final against Liverpool.
I'd like to think he explained the 'slight Ribena staining to the left sleeve' as the blood of some vanquished Eastern European hooligan rather than Adam Ford carelessly opening his carton of pop on the bus.
www.historicalkits.co.uk/Chelsea/images/chelsea_1990-1991-change.gif
(, Fri 1 Mar 2013, 0:24, closed)
You MONSTER.

(, Fri 1 Mar 2013, 8:07, closed)
You should consider also purchasing the water works and electric company.

(, Thu 28 Feb 2013, 16:00, closed)
Never!
A piss-poor investment. Even owning both utilities at a cost of £300 will only ever return a max of £120 (if a double-six is thrown when landing). Owning stations is a far more preferable product, 4x stations = £400 rent AND there are four landing opportunities (double the utilities spread).

No. Even Whitechapel and Old Kent Road represent a far superior use of money. Cheap to build, with cheap but consistent rents.

Take this advice into life. Don't be fooled by simple, cheap-looking options, the long game is always better.
(, Thu 28 Feb 2013, 16:19, closed)
Oh do shut up Albert.

(, Thu 28 Feb 2013, 19:00, closed)
Although that was well smug,
I have to say as far as I can see buying property is about the only coherent retirement plan now.

Last time I checked, which was several years ago, the pension plans I took out in the early 90s were projected to pay all of about 12 grand a year by the time I'm 55.

About what a 2 bed flat in an average part of London will earn in rent.
(, Thu 28 Feb 2013, 16:09, closed)
Buying property is never a coherent retirement plan unless
you know exactly when the boom/bust cycles will be and can avoid a divorce. It can work but it is a massive gamble.
(, Thu 28 Feb 2013, 17:54, closed)
If you deliberately use it as a retirement investment then it can work fine.
In the same way that you would gradually convert your high-risk share investments into low-risk bonds and cash as you approach your intended retirement age, you can translate your property back into cash by re-mortgaging or selling. In the meantime, if the rental market is buoyant (and it's never not buoyant as far as I can see) then you're getting a better annual return than typical dividends. The property market crashing just as you intend to retire is no different to the stock market crashing just as you intend to retire. The downside is that you get nothing like the tax advantage that you get with official pension funds. And if you're some sort of bellend and take out an interest-only mortgage then you are entirely at the whim of an ever-increasing market in which case you deserve to spend your final days eating catfood.
(, Thu 28 Feb 2013, 18:51, closed)
^ third dullest thing I've ever typed into the internet ^

(, Thu 28 Feb 2013, 18:51, closed)
Cheers

(, Thu 28 Feb 2013, 19:18, closed)
Cheers.

(, Sat 2 Mar 2013, 14:47, closed)
plus, mortgages are cheaper as a means of asset conversion.
Each payment is conversion of cash to property. Regular payments to any unitised investment vehicle are subject to annual charges. And inflation isn't very kind to low volatility investments, but exceedingly kind to mortgage borrowers. The only sensible option is to have a spread of non correlated investments.

HTH xx
(, Thu 28 Feb 2013, 19:54, closed)
I remember when people would come to qotw
and post amusing stories.
(, Thu 28 Feb 2013, 20:40, closed)
Cheers.

(, Sat 2 Mar 2013, 14:47, closed)
Seconded.

(, Fri 1 Mar 2013, 14:02, closed)
Fair enough
The divorce comment still stands though (appreciably this is less predictable than even the economy I suppose).
(, Fri 1 Mar 2013, 14:06, closed)
You're wrong.
I distinctly recall a post on this very site declaring that people glad house prices are increasing were morons as it is not a good thing.
(, Thu 28 Feb 2013, 16:36, closed)
Now I don't want to call Honda Accord or owt ...
but paying £0 a month means that it was an interest-only mortgage. If you were previously paying £1,400 a month in 2008 when the base rate was 2% (so your interest rate would have been 1.5%) that would mean an initial mortgage somewhere north of £1.1 million.

Wait ... no ... I am calling Honda Accord.
(, Thu 28 Feb 2013, 18:03, closed)
Honda Accord?
I'm guessing some kind of in-joke expression for bullshit?

All fact I'm afraid. What's the make and model of car to quote if I'm simply telling the truth?

The rates in mid-2008 were 5% www.bankofengland.co.uk/boeapps/iadb/Repo.asp and my rate stood at 4.5% (before the ensuing drop to 0%). Yes, it was an interest only mortgage that cost £1,400 a month. The mortgage was for a much more affordable £375,000 - at a 4.5% rate to begin with, followed by an amazing 0% within a year!

Show my working? If I must: £375,000 at 4.5% = £16,875pa or £1,400.26pcm

Where the fuck you got £1.1m is beyond me. I hope to god you don't work in the financial sector.
(, Thu 28 Feb 2013, 20:26, closed)
Oh I wasn't suggesting that it was entirely bullshit.
I'm sure you might well own some property and have a mortgage.

But I'm really not sure why you're so confused about the £1.1 million since I explained it in perfectly simple terms. If £1400 is 1.5% interest monthly then the loan is just above £1.1 million. Which bit of that is confusing you? You seemed to manage perfectly well poking your own imaginary numbers into an online mortgage calculator.

The fact that you don't appear to understand interest rates or how tax works for one-man limited companies does suggest that some of this story might be a wee bit on the Honda Accord side. And the fact that you think an interest only mortgage is a good idea for property investment when we have the lowest rates in living memory suggests that it's quite a bit on the Honda Accord side. It doesn't take many brains to invest in property but ... you know ... just going from what you're saying here ... I wouldn't put money on you having enough.
(, Thu 28 Feb 2013, 21:09, closed)
No'ffence like.

(, Thu 28 Feb 2013, 21:14, closed)
Confused?
Not me. Maybe all this grown-up talk of mortgages and interest rates is beyond someone whose sole occupation seems to be throwing around lame insults on the internet...but I'll take it upon myself to try and explain a little of this complex world to you - consider it my good deed for the day.

First a few basic terms:

'Interest rate' - this is the % charged on the sum borrowed, with an 'interest free mortgage', this rate is charge 'per annum' (this means 'every year').

Now a simple GCSE question:

Sandeep borrows £100,000 on an interest only mortgage, his bank lends him the money over 25yrs at an interest rate of 10% per annum. What will Sandeep's monthly payments be and what will he pay in total for his mortgage at the end of the term?

Now I'll answer the question for you. 10% of £100,000 is £10,000 - this is the amount Sandeep will have to pay to finance his borrowing over one year. As mortgages are paid monthly, we'll divide the £10,000 interest by 12 (as there are 12 months in the year). This gives us a total of £833.33 a month. His total payments at the end of his term will have been £250,000. Hopefully Sandeep bought in a good area, as at the end of his term....oh fuck it, I can't be arsed.

My mortgage was for £375k at 4.5% pa interest only, giving me monthly repayments of £1,400. Any idiot with 11+ maths could work that one out.

Now piss off, I'm going to wank over my bank statements.
(, Thu 28 Feb 2013, 21:32, closed)
Hahahaha.
Brilliant.

Soz. But imma have to repost this for everybody.
(, Thu 28 Feb 2013, 21:42, closed)
Yes, so at 0% interest, you'd have to pay £1,250 a month.
I fail to see how you were £1,400 better off a month with 0% interest. Surely you meant £150.
(, Fri 1 Mar 2013, 4:00, closed)
No. That's the only bit of the tale that actually makes sense.
There were mortgages below base rate so you could end up with zero interest when they dropped. It's the rest which is twaddle. He clearly doesn't understand how income tax works or how you cannot 'invest' in property if you only pay interest and not the capital.
(, Fri 1 Mar 2013, 7:37, closed)
Don't worry, I'm sure you'll get a job soon.
Chin up, eh? Keep firing off those CV's.
(, Fri 1 Mar 2013, 9:14, closed)
Never written a CV
I was headhunted straight out of university and apart from taking a year out to have kids I've been working ever since. But it's lovely of you to be concerned. LOVELY.
(, Fri 1 Mar 2013, 11:06, closed)
Kids?
Who's going to help them with their maths homework?
(, Fri 1 Mar 2013, 11:57, closed)
I doubt they'll need much help.
They both appear to be extremely bright.
(, Fri 1 Mar 2013, 12:04, closed)
I'm sure they do, compared to you.
Don't forget to remind them to "Read all the questions carefully before attempting to answer any".

Just in case they make themselves look like a massive bell-end.

Derp derp derp.
(, Thu 7 Mar 2013, 9:02, closed)
Dude, save your speeches for Parliament.

(, Sat 2 Mar 2013, 0:50, closed)
Hate to be the simpleton here. I'm no Wall Street Analyst, but...
Isn't he just negative gearing each property until he has enough equity/capital gain in order to reinvest?
(, Fri 1 Mar 2013, 21:40, closed)
The whole thing is a figment of his imagination so there's not much point trying to over-analyse it.

(, Fri 1 Mar 2013, 21:59, closed)
Are your properties fitted with hidden cameras,
or dangerous quantities of explosives?
I'm quite outraged by all the rampant capitalism, but could do with a push into full on apoplexy.
(, Thu 28 Feb 2013, 20:38, closed)
Both.
But not in the same room.
(, Fri 1 Mar 2013, 12:19, closed)
I'm a bit more old fashioned.
I own all my property outright. That way when the Reserve Bank actually cannot prop up the economy on it's own by artificially keeping the rate low - I won't lose a thing. And I'll never have a steadily increasing payment to make to a bank. Ever.
(, Thu 28 Feb 2013, 21:14, closed)
How are the property prices in Oz?
Are you wealthy, is land cheap, or do you just own a large patch of sand near the middle (with onsite bathing facilities)?
(, Fri 1 Mar 2013, 9:27, closed)
You can have the whole left-hand side for ten bob.

(, Fri 1 Mar 2013, 11:26, closed)

The right hand side"s better.
(, Fri 1 Mar 2013, 13:09, closed)
I heard it's full of woofters and japs.
Wait ... soz ... that was last week.
(, Fri 1 Mar 2013, 14:10, closed)
Get stuffed
Banana Bender.
(, Fri 1 Mar 2013, 20:38, closed)
One rental place worth mid 3's across the road from a big patch of gazetted bushland.
Got that 10 odd years ago for about 150.
The manse (about 5 min from the beach) we got for sub 6, it'd be in the early 7's now. (Big blocks the 2 of them).
Nothing feels quite like holding a couple deeds of title.
No property mogul but between the fact that I own outright every thing that I, umm... own, I work and the missus and I have a nice nestegg that's well invested - I can't complain really.
(, Fri 1 Mar 2013, 11:40, closed)
I'm not sure why you're trying to impress us. It's almost as if you don't have any friends or loved ones who can be happy for your success

(, Thu 28 Feb 2013, 23:10, closed)
The general consensus seems to be that you've filled your rental properties with hidden cameras which you watch from the safety of the lair that you've constructed in their septic tank.
I'm assuming the £1 million profit is before you've deducted the cost of all your surveillance equipment.
(, Thu 28 Feb 2013, 23:16, closed)
Just...
Fuck off.
(, Fri 1 Mar 2013, 0:00, closed)
Don't be mean.
If he needs to tell internet lies to feel better then who are we to judge?
(, Fri 1 Mar 2013, 9:07, closed)
Mean?
it was simply advice!
(, Fri 1 Mar 2013, 17:01, closed)
At least you'll be able to afford top lawyers when the email snooping police come knocking.

(, Fri 1 Mar 2013, 9:53, closed)
One of the more interesting replies this week.
We purchased an investment property too ($600k AU) low interest rates, good neighbourhood, rent has increased 15% in 1 year. Working like hell to hammer the mortgage before the interest rates rise/mining boom bursts.
(, Fri 1 Mar 2013, 13:08, closed)
Paying it off is the only sensible option
which is why this interest-only tale whiffs so strongly of BS.
(, Fri 1 Mar 2013, 14:11, closed)
To he honest, I was going to join in on this one yesterday
but I couldn't be arsed .. but now some proper people are playing, actually (although you're right about the retarded maths) the biggest hole in this one would be how the second mortgage was obtained. Because no-one apart from "Big Vern" is going to lend you money for a buy to let mortage simply on the affordability basis that you currently pay zero on your main mortgage as the interest rate is nowt. Especially not in the middle of the greatest economic crash of our generation. So I can only conclude one of three things: This is total Accord, or our lovely protagaist lied through his balls on his mortgage apps, or actually he's much richer than he says, in which case why the need to do all this fannying when he could just be being sucked off by supermodels on a yacht somewhere. All are equally possible.
(, Fri 1 Mar 2013, 14:44, closed)
No part of the story stands up to any scrutiny
I can't believe the mods have let somebody lie on qftw. Sad times indeed.
(, Fri 1 Mar 2013, 15:12, closed)
Bored as I am explaining the basics of percentages to an apprarent mathematics PHD,
I'll also humour you with a reply, seeing as you've so kindly jumped on the bandwagon.

When my monthly outgoings dropped to £0.00 I was far more liquid. The same bank my mortgage was with allowed me to borrow a smaller amount on a buy-to-let mortgage, which means the payments are covered by the rental income. It only required a small deposit too. This, backed up by a strong credit rating and a consistent, dependable income, made me a good risk for the lenders.

Times have changed now, I agree - but back in 2008 mortgages, especially buy-to-let types, were far more freely available and required less down-payments. They screw you on the rates (6.2% for my first buy-to-let) - so these are profitable products for the banks.

Now with my Ltd Co vehicle, I can show strong profits and a healthy, never-defaulted payment history, I'm not getting the cheapest rates on the high-street, not by a long shot - but the huge increases in values of my properties (not one has not gone up by less than 18%), means my LTV is strong and my equity is increasing all the time.

The trick is to sell (which I am currently doing with my first two), which will give me a £50k profit on each, AFTER paying off their respective mortgages. So now I can place £50k on another two properties in a more sought after area. It doesn't matter that I'm not paying off capital by using interest only products - as the increase in property values is more than covering this (as long as I sell at the right time).

Not a whiff of Honda Accord. More a low-key investment success story, more of a Nissan Micra.
(, Fri 1 Mar 2013, 15:16, closed)
Bless.

(, Fri 1 Mar 2013, 15:32, closed)
I prefer to think that you obtained mortgages through deception
it's much more fun to have a frisson of illegality, don't you think?
(, Fri 1 Mar 2013, 17:45, closed)
Also, you can go on explaining the way interest rates works all you like
you're still wrong. And my doctorate is only in a fairly obscure but somewhat critical field of medical engineering. I'm nearly a maths retard and I know you're wrong. IMAGINE.
(, Fri 1 Mar 2013, 17:49, closed)
I particularly like his ability to use a calendar.
The interest rates dropped to 0.5% in March 2009 allowing him to save up some money for a deposit on buy-to-let property that he buys in 2008. It's no wonder he's a property mogul ... fucker's got a time machine.

I'm also fascinated by the fact that yesterday one of his properties was on sale "for a £100,000 profit" but today he has two properties on sale for "£50k profit each". You'd think a financial whizzkid would be able to remember what he wrote barely a day ago. Or perhaps he used his time machine to go back and divide the property into flats.
(, Fri 1 Mar 2013, 18:27, closed)
How dare you suggest that he's making this shit up!
You terrible troll!
(, Fri 1 Mar 2013, 18:33, closed)
Next thing you'll be pointing out with basic arithmetic what an 18% increase making £100k profit means about the initial property value and what that means for a 6.2% interest only mortgage.
You horrible horrible bully. You must be stopped!
(, Fri 1 Mar 2013, 18:38, closed)


(, Fri 1 Mar 2013, 18:39, closed)
Easy now.

(, Fri 1 Mar 2013, 18:53, closed)
Seriously?
Go and stalk someone else. You're becoming a tad obsessive. I'm sure someone's made a spelling mistake on Mumsnet, go and give them the full force of your PHD, you superhero.
(, Fri 1 Mar 2013, 22:08, closed)
Yeah. Soz. I'll prolly stop some time next Thursday.
You're right though. Repeatedly pointing out that you've posted a convoluted and inconsistent (and yet bizarrely tedious) fantasy life on a comedy website probably falls within some broad definition of "stalking".

Guess you're going to just have to get used to it.

edit: would it make you feel better if I cross posted to talk or offtopic or links then more people can point at you? or would that make it worse?

edit edit : no ... wait ... what if I just posted it direct to mumsnet? would that work? that would work, right?
(, Fri 1 Mar 2013, 22:16, closed)
Ooops!
More thread deletion.
Don't tell me you thought I'd made you look like an idiot.

Only idiots delete their posts to try and not look like idiots!
(, Sat 2 Mar 2013, 21:41, closed)
*yawn*

(, Sat 2 Mar 2013, 0:52, closed)
Big Vern.
Watch aht Ernie, 'es got a shoota!
(, Sat 2 Mar 2013, 13:35, closed)
That's funny, I heard you live in a bin.

(, Sat 2 Mar 2013, 8:14, closed)
STAY ABOUT FROM HIS BUY-TO-LETS!

(, Sat 2 Mar 2013, 12:23, closed)
How many sheds do you own?

(, Sat 2 Mar 2013, 17:44, closed)
"If the current trend of property price increases follows year-on-year for the next seven years,"
According to ALL sources I can find (aside from the Halifax biased one). House prices have risen slightly through 2007-09, and since 09 have been pretty much stagnant.
(, Mon 4 Mar 2013, 10:25, closed)
Not in the postcode I purchased in.

(, Thu 7 Mar 2013, 11:15, closed)

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